SyntaxBomb - Indie Coders

This blog post by a fellow developer describes the path of Blitz products and Mark quite well even though being a bit older (2014 ?)

https://www.coolbasic.com/blog/tag/misc/

Personally I don't have anything against Mark, quite the opposite in fact as I still use Blitzmax full time (and special thanks to Brucey of course).
May he find the serenity and happiness in life..

-Henri

Ps. Maybe the last chapter hasn't been written yet ?

You Guys could make a Kickstarter of Blitzbasic V2(I know it is pipe dream) but AGK2 kickstarter made £33,000 out of it few years ago and I am sure Blitzbasic code would be much better than AGK2 and you Guys could make it happen one day as never too late to try it!

Here my Suggestions....

GUI For IDE - ZIGGY(He is Excellent and I am wondering where he is!)
Complier - angros47(or someone that you know can do...)
Documents - For two people to do that

I mean look at AGK 2 Vs Blitzbasic code example

AGK2

Setvirtualresolution(640,480)

//Create an image
LoadImage(1,"temp.png")
CreateSprite(1,1)

Do
    SetSpritePosition(1,Random(0,600),Random(0,400))
    Sync()
    Sleep(250)
Loop
End


Blitzbasic

Const Win_Mode    =2
Const Press_Escape=1

Graphics 640,480,16,Win_Mode

Pic=Loadimage("temp.png")

While Not Keydown(Press_Escape)
      Drawimage Pic,0,0
      FLIP
Wend
End


I know which one I would prefer....

IF there is Kickstarter of Blitzbasic V2 or whatever Basic language is and I would be happy to backed it and I am sure you will....

Quote
I think it was the modularity and kind of first attempts to do some OOP.

ok... OOP is not necessary to make a good stable program, and personaly i don't need it...

and what do you mean by "modularity" ?

(Blitz3d can also have includes and use external libraries.)

anything else ?

Quote from: Hotshot on December 30, 2020, 00:10:25
You Guys could make a Kickstarter of Blitzbasic V2(I know it is pipe dream) but AGK2 kickstarter made £33,000 out of it few years ago and I am sure Blitzbasic code would be much better than AGK2 and you Guys could make it happen one day as never too late to try it!

Seriously I think that wouldn't lead to any results. The AGK guys had already a track record so it's more easy. Plus Kickstarter creates quite some pressure and 1000 people have 1000 opinions how it should look like.

QuoteHere my Suggestions....

GUI For IDE - ZIGGY(He is Excellent and I am wondering where he is!)
Complier - angros47(or someone that you know can do...)
Documents - For two people to do that

Yeah sounds reasonable. Actually I don't think that there is a real market for it money wise. I mean I could give it a try (again) but this would be most likely open source stuff and for free. I'm in the lucky situation to work for myself full time anyway so I don't need that as an income (I still have that name BitsBasic in mind  ).

On the other hand there is already Cerberus which comes pretty close to what BB3D did (minus the 3d thing but that's being worked on).

@RemiD: With modularity I mean that you could create any modules for it and the community did quite well with that.

Not to sound pessimistic, I'd just let it go, its still rolling with Cerberus and with Bruceys NG... They seem to be filling in existing needs really, and doing a fine job, yeah, you might get one or two new users coming through, but to make it shine again is just far too much even just to make someone have a passing interest... It's not worth it if you ask me, complete rebuild of the main tools isnt the only thing, everything, literally everything needs its arse dragging up to modern standards, and, official modules should and would need them little extras too... MaxGUI say, it will need a decent visual editor, noone wants to faff about with gadgets in code anymore, having to edit,rebuild and run the app constantly to see if that button is just right on the form. If your targetting mobile, you'll have to have some sort of bridge to see the results instantly like b4x has. So there is a clump of work just with that, and it'll have to be maintained as well... All of it!

Then we have marketing, one of the main reasons Blitz fell on its arse, it no good having John Smith, who does nights in a BP garage to sort that out... You need a company involved, or at least someone freelancing and knows the ins and outs, that'll cost, that is a shell out, and no kickstarter has ever been successful really when it comes to payrolls, your gonna need some money upfront for that alone, as their first job will be indeed "The Kickstart Campaign".

Only thing I can see not being a problem is web design, most of us here can do a bit, some more advanced then others, but, you still need to get the brand out there, no good having an all singing and dancing site sitting with a snazzy domain name just to be holed up in a corner of the net somewhere waiting for anything other then a search engine bot patrolling the pages.

Its alright saying "Oh, just do this, and this and that", great when its rolling off the lips... Many life lessons myself have made me realise... Nothing is easy, to do something right and give it a fighting chance, you've got to do it proper, and realistically... Clumping a bunch of randoms together with their own ideas instantly makes it a none starter, and I'll admit, I'm the worlds worst in getting bored with a project... I'll be like "RIGHT, LETS DO THIS SHIT", war paint on the mush, a big old Braveheart "FREEDDDDOOOMMMM", fortnight later, I'll be like "Cannot be chewed"... I'm a terror for it, I know I am, and the thing is, so are many many other people!

You need a team with a clear direction, a professional setup, people that are good at what they do, dedicated, and will go about it all professionally... In the most part, because they will be getting paid or, there is a financial reward at the end... Thats how it works.

Use whats available now, or just simply... Let it go.. And if someone cannot, then, let them put their money where their mouth is and say "I've got £20000 [And thats being, well, tight] and we'll produce something that is actually viable for a real kickstarter campaign, to take it to the next level.", see if anyone takes up the offer.

And, well.. Not gonna happen is it!

I do hate to be blunt, never enjoy being the voice of reason, because, well, I like being the idiotic daft one, but, it is what it is...

Dabz

There already is a Blitz Basic V2  :-)

https://github.com/nitrologic/blitz2

-Henri

Lol, where's the setup.exe file though? hehehe

Notice after my little whatsit post the Amiga sequel, as it is, contained a GUI editor!

So Mark thought it would be a good idea to bundle one with the Amiga, but never bothered with B+/MaxGUI!?!

Dabz

I think jsp did an excellent job on a MaxGui editor with his LogicGUI (even though the website is down I believe he is still around), so at least that base is already covered.

On the IDE side there is still some work to be done, but some good alternatives exist like the vscode with Bmax plugin and markcwm's version of MaxIDE found here https://github.com/markcwm/maxide

On the 3D side there is the OpenB3D by angros and the Bmax wrapper for it by markcwm (and maybe RayLib ?) I do not use 3D at all so I can't really comment on those other than that they look cool :-).

-Henri

Hmm, without dissing the work on maxgui and maxide

We are in 2020 NOT 2000. those products were not that good at the time. now however they are completely unusable. you can't compile for NG without lots of work. scintilla is win only, etc, etc.

The world has moved on. To be in anyway relevant, the ide and basic functionality needs to be able to match with Unreal, Unity, etc.
MaxGui is 'frankly" a joke these days.

Even BlitzNG is hugely undocumented and by default uses a version of MaxEdit that is just 'pants'. Getting it setup is also not a simple task (for the average joe).

Let's assume that all of this was taken care of - you are still left with an old product with it's feet firmly in the past. Where's Vulcan, Metal, etc. Where are the new proper cross platform code and binders. And where is the steam/appstores integration, etc

Psst. what to use it and know how everything operate - you're stuffed because nothing is documented - or docced so poorly as to not really make much sense anymore.

Don't even start with the new shift from x86 to Arm, etc.

Oh blitz3d was the ace - yep in the last century maybe. But even then it was and is soo poorly documented that it's unusable. E.G. what is a skeleton, how does it work, how do I get it integrated into a 3d model, etc, etc. Shaders - forget it... Blitz3d is deader that Green A-Line Flares!

20 years ago - ok maybe - but today...!

What is MaxEdit ? You mean MaxIDE ? If so then yeah that is just basic IDE without any whistles. Scintilla itself is a multiplatform by nature though and I believe the version that comes in the MaxGUI folder should be useable for all. The link for the MaxIDE version that I provided has a Windows dll for scintilla properties like suggestions, so that part is Windows only, but MaxIDE code itself is multiplatform so making it operate in Mac/Linux shouldn't be that hard if someone was motivated (I do not own a Mac and not planning on getting one either).

And as for basic setup it really should be just download the official release and just have a go at it. The trouble usually comes when you want to use other 3rd party modules not officially supported. My experience has just been in Windows platform only so maybe its pants in others ? Microsoft has always been hell bent on retaining backwards compatibility.

In any case, Blitzmax doesn't have to be Unity or Unreal because what would be the point ? If people liked that kind of environment they would surely be better off using those, but I suspect that not all do.

Blitzmax as it currently stands is an open source project and its development is depended on the people around it. If someone wants something really bad they usually get it..

-Henri

Ps. I feel that I have to say some good words about MaxGUI so that its not all negative: It is very well documented, simple for beginners and works (I have some old programs that use it and I update those still, even though wxMax is my choice now as its for more advanced users :-)). 

QuoteI think jsp did an excellent job on a MaxGui editor with his LogicGUI (even though the website is down I believe he is still around), so at least that base is already covered.

Its not covered though, as separate entities, yes, all well and nice, top jobs, but you really need the two combined, if your going to have something like a MaxGUI mod, then, its only natural you would find a visual editor within the main IDE, where, you could just "click" open the visual editor, have a tinker, generate members into your main project within the IDE, which gets picked up by an intelli-sense engine and your good to go, no mucking about with "exporting to file", which you include later, have the development environment update everything for you on the fly.

To me, that is an absolute minimum for any development tool that provides access to GUI elements... Split 'em up, and I'll use something else... And there it is... One thing, out of so many as well, and I'm out!

I imagine its the same for a lot more people as well... I just dont want the chew, because there really is no excuse now to have one with other tools making life so much easier on that front!

And I'm not on about Unity or other pointy click dev tools... I'm on about good old fashioned BASIC's which do require you to do what most of us like, just banging code out, but, they remove the tedium bits, and to me, GUI design is tedious enough with an visual editor, never mind having to create, manage children and edit gadgets properties in a text editor... Sod that!

Dabz

So, if MaxIDE (or similar) had that element, that would do it for you ?

-Henri

Quote from: iWasAdam on December 30, 2020, 14:03:07
To be in anyway relevant, the ide and basic functionality needs to be able to match with Unreal, Unity, etc.

I strongly disagree. I mean you're right, the IDE has to be fine, but there is Visual Studio Code which could be setup somehow easily. Regarding Unity I think it's a bloated beast, I don't want to use a visual editor, I want to code. Call me old school.

Yeah I can't get on with Unity and it's known for being bloaty and pretty slow. Why try and complete with something like that? Different customer base.

There are so many ideas, so many proposals... this is the issue of many community based projects: fragmentation. Someone suggests OpenB3D, someone else suggests Raylib, and so on

I have seen similar issues in the FreeBasic site, in the past (and I also remember the endless discussions, and some trolls taking advantage of that to try to advertise their own projects). I have already said, in the past, what has worked for me as a replacement for Blitz3D: FreeBasic+OpenB3D. I know that I am walking on thin ice, now: in the FreeBasic forum, I was bothered when other people came and suggested to use different tools as FreeBasic replacement, so, if my suggestion bothers anyone, feel free to tell me, and I will stop.

The original MiniB3D had a lot of people who extended and improved it: Simon, Warner, Klepto, BlaBZ, AdamRedwoods. Each one made their own custom version: Simon made the "vanilla" one, Warner added quaternion and terrains, Klepto added shaders and shadows, BlaBZ added several post processing effects, AdamRedwoods ported it to other platforms... and that was the real issue: each version was incompatible with the others: if I wanted at the same time quaternion rotations, and shadows, it was not possible.

So, most of my efforts were focused in putting all those improvements together: I thank all the people mentioned, if they are reading this.

My point is, in general, that if we want a sort of "Blitz3D v2" all useful efforts should be put together: and I know it's not easy, because I am not even sure if we all want the same kind of product. I have my own ideas, and other people have their owns.

One thing that I think we need is new people: what made Blitz3D successful was the community that loved to experiment, and created a large code archive: there were thousands of fascinating examples, from neural nets to procedural cities, that encouraged people to learn more, and to try to make even better. Now, that community has shattered: and most important, what remains of it is shrinking. So I think we need something that could attract new people, just like Blitz3D did in the old times. Something that offers the ability to make people say "Wow! You did it yourself?", to a proud newbie who is showing their first 3d game.

Blitz3D worked "out of the box". You installed it, you loaded the first demo, and by pressing a key, it worked. And the language was immediately understandable. Today, I am not sure if the languages we are using (FreeBasic or BlitzMax) are so immediate. A lot of people in the web keep stating that Python is the new "basic", the language used to introduce people to programming.... I have no idea if that's true or not. But, in doubt, I cobbled together a Python header, so if the future is that, a Python-B3D hybrid is possible.

Since nowadays there is a lot of hype about mobile gaming, an useful feature would be the ability to compile to mobile devices. I read how, to compile C++ to Android, one would need to  first install and configure the whole Android SDK with Java (even if Java is used only to make a simple wrapper), and then to install  and configure the NDK, before being able to even make a "hello world" example. And for iOS it's even worse. I have also heard of Cordova, that can convert webapps to native apps (perhaps a game compiled with Emscripten could be turned into a native app?). Anyway, I have no experience about mobile developing, anyone here knows more about it? If anyone is interested in trying to compile OpenB3D for Android, please let me know.

Last but not least: Xaron mentioned the idea of an interpreter: that would surely be useful, a simplified version of a basic language, used to learn programming: would you like to elaborate your interpreter idea more?