SyntaxBomb - Indie Coders

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Matty on September 12, 2020, 07:18:09 PM

Title: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Matty on September 12, 2020, 07:18:09 PM
https://www.blog.udonis.co/mobile-marketing/mobile-games/mobile-gaming-statistics

Greetings.

The statistic that I focus on on this page is the session duration in minutes for different categories.

Many games only have an average of under five minutes that users spend with them.

Hope you find it useful.
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Matty on September 16, 2020, 07:29:41 PM
Here's a scary thought if you make games for mobile based on these stats:

After Day 1 since a user installs over 60% of your users will uninstall the app - and that's best case scenario, and not only- most users will play your app for under 5 minutes.

So for all the hard work you put into any mobile app the majority of users who actively choose to install it (remember, no one holds a gun to their head to install an app) will play for less time than a couple of commercial breaks on television and uninstall after the first day.

Not only, but that 5 minutes is average, even the top half of users in terms of length of play will only do so at most for 15 to 20 minutes - and then uninstall it.

Furthermore, a month after installing as few as 2% will still have it on their device in many cases.

So....a developer can spend hours, weeks and months developing and refining their app when in user land even the top games manage to get less than twenty minutes play before being discarded.

It does make me wonder when I see Steam Match 3 games with reviews by users upwards of 2 hours play time when comparable mobile versions average 5 minutes play and then uninstall.
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Steve Elliott on September 16, 2020, 07:54:54 PM
Quote
The statistic that I focus on on this page is the session duration in minutes for different categories.

Many games only have an average of under five minutes that users spend with them.

After Day 1 since a user installs over 60% of your users will uninstall the app - and that's best case scenario, and not only- most users will play your app for under 5 minutes.

It does make me wonder when I see Steam Match 3 games with reviews by users upwards of 2 hours play time when comparable mobile versions average 5 minutes play and then uninstall.

So all the more reason to stick to accepted and well known methods of game interaction!  If you change all the rules (because it appeals to you) then they will uninstall your game before they can be bothered to fight with your alien UI...As Adam keeps telling you!
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Matty on September 16, 2020, 08:38:11 PM
Actually the opposite is true.

If both good and bad games get a mere 5 minute play time then 'do what you want as whatever makes YOU happy is all that then counts' - because all your extra efforts won't translate to more users or better play.

Eg for all the effort those developers games Adam showed went to:most of their users played for a toilet break and then uninstalled making their development efforts and quality pointless.

https://www.reddit.com/r/quotes/comments/26req0/the_most_dangerous_creation_of_any_society_is_the/
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Steve Elliott on September 16, 2020, 08:48:09 PM
Matty, you are clearly a very talented coder...I just don't get the feeling you know what it takes to blow gamers socks off...Have you thought about producing (non-game) apps/software for companies?  You seem to be able to knock out code very quickly, so why not pursue that avenue instead?
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Matty on September 16, 2020, 09:03:25 PM
You are correct.

If mobile games like Bee Factory below with 10 million installs are what blows gamers socks off then I truly have no idea.

I like business software, it was my day job for 11 years until I quit.

So: Bee Factory 10million plus players.
Grand theft auto 5 140 million players.

Not a lot of difference when you consider the relative effort to produce.
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Derron on September 16, 2020, 09:09:16 PM
This looks like a clicker game ... clicker games tend to be played longer than 5 minutes.


bye
Ron
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Matty on September 16, 2020, 09:37:43 PM
Not so sure Derron.  Read the report on the link.  It's thorough.
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Matty on September 16, 2020, 10:41:16 PM
In any case - my own results don't compare too badly - pretty similar to the standard mobile gaming experience as per the article: attached graph.

Note the 7.37 refers to the y-axis - a peculiarity about the graphing software. ((It's not the average number of minutes played)
(https://www.mattiesgames.com/articles/sessionlength.jpg)
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Xerra on September 16, 2020, 10:52:19 PM
Call me cynical but I suspect there's a good chunk of developers out there who wouldn't give a shit if their game gets uninstalled by over 60% of the people who've played it within a day. As long as they've purchased it first.

Maybe not the best example, but back in the days of the 8 bit machines, sometimes companies thought it advantageous for the magazines to release pokes and cheat codes for their games specifically for players to use and finish the game. That way their user base was all primed up to go out and buy the next one. Kind of the same thing with devs wanting players to get the next game they come up with. Although, in reality, players would probably not want to get their next game if they lost interest that quickly in the current one.

Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Matty on September 17, 2020, 04:52:05 AM
A thought re perspective.

Grand Theft Auto 5 cost $250 million dollars to make and has acquired 140 million users.  So a cost of about $2 to the company per user to develop the game. ( And an income of x per user say 100AUD each).

Bee Factory has over 10 million users and I highly doubt it cost more than a few thousand dollars to make.

Economies of scale.
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: iWasAdam on September 17, 2020, 07:25:32 AM
there are lies
there are damed lies
and then there are statistics!

Statistics will tell you anything you want them to tell you.

To compare GTA to bee studio is (frankly my dear Matty) ridiculous!

it's a bit like saying 'last year high speed trains caused no damage to road surfaces - therefore we should ban all cars and replace them directly with trains as they wont damage the road surface and we wont have to spend money on fixing pot holes!"
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Derron on September 17, 2020, 10:19:44 AM
- full price titles have a different "buy it" barrier than low price
- sequels (GTA x vs Bee 1) have loyal customers buying "again" (less costs for them)
- blockbuster games have high advertisement costs
- mobile games have a different target group
- complex games require more bug squashing time (...costs)
- GTA 5 is surely localized in various languages - maybe including audio, Bee ... maybe localized but this by single persons or "cheap" companies
- word of mouth
- ...
- some mobile apps are "free" for some time ("specials") to gain installs.

Also install numbers are sometimes... "bought" too - especially on mobile markets.

Would be interesting to see where the "buys" came from .. I suspect India etc.
Of course because Indians like the game more than other nations :D


Nonetheless I think the bee game was quite successful for the publisher/developer (if the numbers are "somehow" real ... so maybe only 50% faked).


bye
Ron
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: iWasAdam on September 17, 2020, 12:27:17 PM
I've been trying to work out your stats image - It's not very clear what the stats mean. usually you would be able to look and see at a glance.

The fact you have to explain things (and even then it isn't clear) means your stats can be misread or mislead people as to their meaning.

It then goes into q numbers - Now I'm assuming you made this up as I can't find any reference in any statistic system that uses them. so (whatever) Q numbers are - they are irrelevant

You then go into global medians (with no reference to where and how you obtained these) and begin comparing your stuff to this (unsubstantiated) data - again not a good position.

And finally you use all of this (garbage is the only word here) data to justify your actions in regard to your game.

This post (along with your other posts) is just a fishing expedition of your part to shore up your ego, and inflate your delusional attitude to your programming.

Lastly - did you ask for this data from people? There are many countries where this sort of thing is completely illegal and enforceable by extreme measures. They WILL prosecute!

If you collect any form of data - you will need permission, and potentially you will need to fill in lots of GDPR paperwork and all sort of other stuff. Plus keep records, etc.

You are deliberately tracking IP addresses and who know what else... Think Matty!



Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Matty on September 17, 2020, 02:31:44 PM
Now I'm sure you're 'taking the piss out of me' when you say you've never heard of Quartiles in statistics  (says I with a science degree in applied mathematics....)

Sorry if you don't understand.

Re EU.  I know, Google has had me have this in place for years:https://mattiesgames.com/privacypolicy.html
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Derron on September 17, 2020, 02:50:42 PM
While I know what quartiles are (yet I tried to forget them once I finshed exams about it when at university - now coming back as I need to do AI/machine learning work for my day job), Adam is right when it comes to the legality question of data collections.

Ask before collecting data. Not Opt-Out but Opt-In!


Regarding Quartiles - maybe percentiles would suit here better, the quartiles lead ot the assumption of 25% playing longer than 12 Minutes - while it is the "29+" column which raises the bar for the q3.
also "29+" might mean anything .. maybe the bar is
29=0
30=0
31=0
...
250=40 (some people who left the game running while going out - or not knowing how to properly close the game and just "alt tabbing")


Also your stats show something:
- most people are not interested in playing your games "that long"
- if you somehow convince them to play your game (so get used to your art, to your odd controls, to your story, your gameplay depth ...), they play it for "very long" time

Now think about this:
- are the games you measured meant to be played that long (or short) ? Some games are designed for toilet breaks (so <5 minutes play time)
- why are people going away?
- do you measure from "game application start" to "game application end" or just "ingame" (which would lack who does quit because they do not know where to click/hit or they find the color choice ugly or cannot speak your language...) ?
- how does game play time evolve for "returners" - do they come for "more" or for the same amount of playtime?
- how many returners do you have
- what other of your games do users try out - do they look for more?
- do you count unique users or simply "users per app"?


Statistics can help a lot - but they have to be acquired legally - and you must be prepared to fall into a biased-assumption trap.


bye
Ron
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Matty on September 17, 2020, 03:03:27 PM
Re legality : when a website such as Syntax bomb reports on the front page the number of 'Guests' online - do you tjink they've opted in?  8)
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: iWasAdam on September 17, 2020, 03:07:53 PM
you would need to clarify that with Qube.

'He does... so I can" is no defence. And that is NOT statistical data. You have (repeatedly) said you are monitoring ip addresses - length of playtime, what people are doing - you are directly monitoring and capturing and storing data.

Again you are attempting to justify your actions... and seeking attention...
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Matty on September 17, 2020, 03:12:28 PM
Derron "- most people are not interested in playing your games "that long"" this is normal.  Reread the report linked on page 1  60% of users uninstall mobile games on day 1 after 4 minutes gameplay.

I understand what both of you are saying. I'm merely providing you with insights into game play usage with both the reports on the udonis site and comparing to my own for your reference.
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: MikeHart on September 17, 2020, 04:01:13 PM
Re legality : when a website such as Syntax bomb reports on the front page the number of 'Guests' online - do you tjink they've opted in?  8)
Lol Matty you fool. Btw. GDPR is a field i work in at my dayjob.


 For counting visitors you don't store their IP anyway, so there is no need to opt in. GDPR is all about which information you store, for what purpose you can use it and the rights of the individual which owns the information. The ISP will store the IP, but that is usually handled via a service contract between the ISP and the websites owner, plus as a visitor you agree to certain things when you accept the cookies.


Matty, if you don't got an agreement from your users about storing their IP, then you can await fines, even from a country like germany. Because it is not up to were YOU live but WHERE your product is served.


So if you already went against the DSGVO which i assume you do, it would be better you will report yourself to our athorities. The fine might be cheaper. Depending on the damage they might let it go by. But if you don't report yourself in, the fines can easily 5 or 6 digit numbers no matter how small your business is.

Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: MikeHart on September 17, 2020, 04:11:20 PM
Re EU.  I know, Google has had me have this in place for years:https://mattiesgames.com/privacypolicy.html

Ouch, the Policy lacks in so many ways and even gives false informations. For an examples, you say only YOU store info. WRONG, your ISP is storing it too. AT LEAST the IP. And that my friend is a personal information of a user. And that YOU also store an IP, you have mentioned yourself before.
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Matty on September 17, 2020, 04:44:44 PM
All IP address information now removed - and no longer collected.

Statistical information still collected however, no IP address information collected any further by me.
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Derron on September 17, 2020, 06:43:13 PM
Before you now become afraid ... if you live in Australia ... it will be hard for Germany (public authorities) to persecute you.

As with all legal actions: it requires at least a lawyer in _your_ country who can then try to pursue you. So if someone pirates your game and sells it in their country (so you have postal address etc), you need a lawyer in this country, not just in yours.

So "dsvgo" can ... you can ignore it if you not intend to visit Germany (if ... I say "if" - Type 3 conditional :D - they even think about doing something against your little website).

Regarding personal data:
Every data you somehow "process" (storing, adding, transforming, ...) and which is "personal" (allows identifying the indivdual user) requires approval of the user. At least in countries like Germany. Other countries might not require it - and as long as you do not "sell" to these countries, it must not bother you.

I think the issue here is: those who accept processing their private data, are different "type" of users than who decline any usage. So every metric you gain is already biased.


Websites and game dev (and here: metrics) became a huge mine field the last decade.


bye
Ron
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Matty on September 17, 2020, 11:39:29 PM
In any case - regarding graphs....here's one that might be a little easier for people to read.

(https://www.mattiesgames.com/art/players.jpg)
Title: Re: Link:site with gaming statistics
Post by: Steve Elliott on September 17, 2020, 11:46:47 PM
Just make good games that *everybody* wants to play, and leave the Statistician's to say if it's a success or not.  ;D
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