SyntaxBomb - Indie Coders

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Qube on August 10, 2019, 02:02:32 AM

Title: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Qube on August 10, 2019, 02:02:32 AM
http://monkeycoder.co.nz is showing down for maintenance :

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/images/MonkeyDown20190810.gif)

What could it mean?, is it closing?, is it getting an upgrade?, is there an announcement of a new language?

Theories a go-go :P
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Amon. on August 10, 2019, 02:35:25 AM
OOOOH! Where to start speculation wise?  :P
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Naughty Alien on August 10, 2019, 04:28:16 AM
..i think its down for maintenance  ;D
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: sphinx on August 10, 2019, 07:03:23 AM
Well, history tells us what it is  :o
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: c0d3r9 on August 10, 2019, 03:48:21 PM
Quote from Mark on discord:Hi everyone, I've decided to shut down monkeycoder.co.nz for at least a while, possibly for good.
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Steve Elliott on August 10, 2019, 03:58:42 PM
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Qube on August 10, 2019, 04:49:19 PM
Quote from Mark on discord:Hi everyone, I've decided to shut down monkeycoder.co.nz for at least a while, possibly for good.
And the 3rd community site vanishes! - No big surprise there really. It's been on the cards ever since the development of Monkey2 ground to a halt. Nice that he gave the community time to save any info from the site they wanted to keep.
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Dabz on August 10, 2019, 04:49:52 PM
Quote
Quote from Mark on discord:Hi everyone, I've decided to shut down monkeycoder.co.nz for at least a while, possibly for good.

A shame, but very much not surprising... A few Sibly worshipping forum trolls shitting on people that were pointing out genuine concerns a long time ago was the kiss of death for me personally, and these people, somehow, thought plonking a monkey logo on startup in 3rd party apps was the way to go and would set monkey2 on fire, as well as other half arsed ideas!

And the Patreon thing, which again, was based around bad advice from aforementioned Sibly worshippers, that didnt go to well either, alright at the start I suppose, but come the end, the figures were dire!

But hey, people clammered for decent updates to BlitzMax, people who actually released stuff and had hordes of code built up ready to go, they said they would pay for it, I would of paid because I loved BlitzMax, he ignored them, and proceeded on his venture for syntax gymnastics, basically reinventing wheels, instead of concentrating on what made Blitz good in the first place... Making games easily, freeing you from bullshite that other, more professional lines of languages bog you down with.

The beginning of the end was really when he took the cleaver to the BlitzBasic community, there was no coming back from that, which I've always wondered why he did that as he did have a large userbase, which was there, combined with his none marketing skills, it was a bit silly!

Dabz
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Steve Elliott on August 10, 2019, 05:06:57 PM
Quote
and proceeded on his venture for syntax gymnastics, basically reinventing wheels, instead of concentrating on what made Blitz good in the first place... Making games easily, freeing you from bullshite that other, more professional lines of languages bog you down with.

*this*
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Hezkore on August 10, 2019, 05:33:54 PM
He's going to shut down the site cause no one used it.
He'll be online in the chat more often.
And he plans to merge some SDL 2.0.9 updates to Monkey 2 soon.

I always told him that a GitHub pages site would be a lot better for him.
It would host itself and he wouldn't need to keep updating it.
But who listens to me.
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Steve Elliott on August 10, 2019, 05:47:02 PM
Quote
A few Sibly worshipping forum trolls

I would never use anything from that con man ever again, and wouldn't believe a word of what he says.  Getting people to give him money under false pretences to fund his syntax dream, then doing what he wanted (rather than what paid users wanted).  And yet again he's taken down a website that his users used and relied upon without warning...In the early days he was a hero, now he's very lucky he's not been in court.
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Qube on August 10, 2019, 11:51:14 PM
Mark, if you're reading this....

1.. Make Blitz3D 2 for desktops.

2.. Charge for it and not give it away.

3.. After purchase it entitles the user to one year of updates. After the first year users can update their license for a smaller fee for a further 12 months of updates. If they don't want to update then they can still use the version they are on until they do want to update.

That way you get continued income from users who want to see it develop and grow and not just rely on one time payments or donations.

Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Steve Elliott on August 10, 2019, 11:55:29 PM
Yes, to allow free updates for life is financial suicide.  As for a simple to use language aimed at games production, well Mark now seems to think that is beneath him. So his languages have failed because he didn't listen to what people actually wanted.
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Qube on August 11, 2019, 12:24:05 AM
Quote
Yes, to allow free updates for life is financial suicide.
It certainly is. To have a product that's constantly updated and improved does not work with a one off payment as you'll never get a decent constant flow of new users. Yet the users you do have there will be a good chunk of those who would be happy to pay a small yearly fee for updates and improvements. Make sense to me :P
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: GaborD on August 11, 2019, 02:25:22 AM
Yes, to allow free updates for life is financial suicide.  As for a simple to use language aimed at games production, well Mark now seems to think that is beneath him. So his languages have failed because he didn't listen to what people actually wanted.

He probably missed a big opportunity to grow his brand and product portfolio back in those days. So many people were waiting for a modern Blitz3D version. Even just elevating it to DX9 would have done so much.
I was a huge Blitz3D fan, was hoping one day we get Blitz3D2 and can up the ante. But it never materialized.
Nothing against Max as a language, but the "modular barebones main product" approach is not that great without established addon makers.
All those half baked 3D addons that never worked or got dropped like hot potatoes before reaching release didn't do it any favors.
So I went to NB and had tons of fun with that, but it never reached a final truly stable release either and was also a victim of the "updates forever" nonsense. :P
Ah well, in the long run Unity and UE would still have steamrolled everything anyway.
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Naughty Alien on August 11, 2019, 02:44:12 AM
..he attac..
..he protec..


but most importantly..


he did web site smacc..
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Qube on August 11, 2019, 04:04:45 AM
Well I think this pretty much confirms the end of http://monkeycoder.co.nz and the community - Over at Discord :

Quote
marksibly

I've tweaked the itch.io page a bit and plan to redirect monkeycoder.co.nz to it ASAP:

https://blitzresearch.itch.io/monkey2

This will do as a homepage for now, but I would like to get github pages going - @Vidiot_X would you be into helping me with this? Anyone else? I assume people make PRs and I merge them? Will need to take a closer look...

In general though I only want to have to deal with static sites in future. Any discussions should be taking place here or on a slack channel or something. I'm through with hosting 'forums' etc.

So there you have it...
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: iWasAdam on August 11, 2019, 07:14:41 AM
Hmmm. as one of (the very) few users I feel I can at least add some overview:
The monkey2 language was one of the best I've used, but there is soo much missing. the core concepts (and code) are all there, but the details are missing:
E.G.
color having basic red yellow, blue and a few others but nothing more and no way to actually see without coding - these were (eventually) a bit but even then only a few additions and some later ones for PBR plus some appalling spelling!

2d graphics primitives being based on 3d, but stopping short of making use of what 3d offers: shaders, Also just basic shapes provided, and no way to extend them yourself without going into the core code.
E.G.
DrawRect makes a filled box, but no way to draw just the frame. the same for DrawCircle. Yep you could code one up, but it SHOULD have been there as part of the core
To EXTEND a CLASS all the stuff you need access to is PRIVATE - all the vertex code and other stuff you need to extend to add functions

Help files. Just don't get me started on help files. there is basic help but most of it is either (terrible is too nice a word) absolutely appalling or completely missing. nothing to tell you information, nothing to help you and no examples

But in saying all of that the language itself is really nice to use and super stable - BlitzMax had some very odd things going on inside which made any apps unstable. not sure why or what but there was just something not quite right in BlitzMax.

My only beef was his treatment of users, particularly anyone who had the grillocks to make suggestions or improvements.
He publicly used my software to market BlitzMax and then deliberately altered Monkey2 code to prevent me from releasing stuff when I pointed out how things could be improved!

He was (at best) abrasive to the whole community. His treatment of the BlitzMax users in the end was shameful.

I will continue t use MX2 until it becomes obsolete, and would advise anyone to NOT use ANY new project with his name attatched.

RIP Monkey2
Stupid name
Cut down too soon

Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Kris on August 11, 2019, 01:22:11 PM
My only beef was his treatment of users, particularly anyone who had the grillocks to make suggestions or improvements.
He publicly used my software to market BlitzMax and then deliberately altered Monkey2 code to prevent me from releasing stuff when I pointed out how things could be improved!

Could you tell more about this? What software of yours did he use and how did he alter the Monkey2 code?
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: iWasAdam on August 11, 2019, 02:25:07 PM
software was VJO Wave. and used screenshots and other shots in the marketing of BlitzMax. Basically promoting the language as brilliant examples of what could be done. There was no request by Mark about if it could be used, etc. But I was not too bothered as it showed he trusted VJO Wave as a good example...

Monkey2 module MojoX was originally not a module, but was part of the Ted Editor. I was in touch directly with Mark about MojoX and how it functioned, he was not happy with MojoX and said it should be restarted from scratch. I was (very publicly) working on an enhanced version of Ted and it was being well received by the community.
What was interesting was I released a version of the Editor with a new UI system that showed enhanced functions for audio. Mark liked what he saw and With the next update MojoX was suddenly a module and deeply integrated (for no actual reason) or warning - thus completely breaking any work being done with the old system and also breaking the new version of the Ted editor. There was no need for it to be done in this way - this was purely deliberate on Marks' side and showed a very petty and nasty side of things. It was talked about briefly, but Marks response was basically "tough"!


Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: GfK on August 11, 2019, 02:54:39 PM
*looks up from Unity*

*rolls eyes*

*goes back to Unity*
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Kris on August 11, 2019, 04:20:00 PM
Well, those don't sound too good Adam. Sorry for the undeserved faith of your editor. That whole thing sucks big time.
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: iWasAdam on August 11, 2019, 08:06:57 PM
Thanks, the editor development was continued, extended and is very well used by me to this day... just compiled on the original version of the language
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Dabz on August 11, 2019, 09:24:19 PM
Quote
*looks up from Unity*

*rolls eyes*

*goes back to Unity*

Hey up Dave, hows it keeping? Hope all is well! :)

Here, I've tried Unity, bought a book and everything (Sams Teach Yourself Unity Game Development 2018), and even though I worked through it, understood it, even managed to get a VR app up on my Oculus Go, I dunno, I'm still a stubborn fart and just prefer the old way! :P

Not that I do much, but hey, I guess I'm just stuck in the old school mindset! ;)

Dabz
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Kryzon on August 11, 2019, 09:57:26 PM
The cool thing about BMax was that you could very well use it to make generic desktop software, not just games.
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Qube on August 12, 2019, 01:33:11 AM
@iWasAdam - I vaguely remember all that :o not great to do such a thing and you should have been told upfront.

Quote from: Dabz
Here, I've tried Unity, bought a book and everything (Sams Teach Yourself Unity Game Development 2018), and even though I worked through it, understood it, even managed to get a VR app up on my Oculus Go, I dunno, I'm still a stubborn fart and just prefer the old way! :P
I kinda like the direction Unity is heading in and it's finally getting some decent 2D updates and pushing towards smaller and faster exe's. It's a beast to learn with a lot of functionality but it's pretty easy to get into the basics.

But, like you, I do prefer the old school way of doing things although I do like to dabble with Unity.
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: iWasAdam on August 12, 2019, 08:59:24 AM
Quote
I vaguely remember all that :o not great to do such a thing and you should have been told upfront.
Yep. I learnt a thing or two at that point!  >:(

Still, it's not all bad. It made me take the whole thing apart and find out what to do to fix things. But i would have loved to folded all the results back into the source, but again Mark took (i think it was over a year) to add a couple of the suggested colors!

Me: i've got a very nice editor, all the dev stuff I wanted (visual colour palettes, profiling, binary code view, etc). What has Mark got? Oh yep. he just nuked the community and language!  :-* :)) 8)

Hmm. more game design methinks...
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: GfK on August 12, 2019, 12:20:19 PM
Hey up Dave, hows it keeping? Hope all is well! :)
Hello!

Pretty good at the min! Rough start to the year, mind.  Mum died in January, then the dog got sick and had to be put to sleep in March.  So I was all a bit "Fuck you, 2019" for a while there.  Decided to focus on getting fit again and managed to lose over 30lb in the last ten weeks.  So, plodding on.  Mountain bike doesn't know what's hit it. :D

Quote
Here, I've tried Unity, bought a book and everything (Sams Teach Yourself Unity Game Development 2018), and even though I worked through it, understood it, even managed to get a VR app up on my Oculus Go, I dunno, I'm still a stubborn fart and just prefer the old way! :P
I was the same at first, way back in Unity 3.  Then one of the many precursors to Monkey2's downfall prompted me to give Unity another crack and work through some online tutorials that really helped it all to click.  All I can say is the more you do it, the more "normal" it gets.  Blitzmax code is completely alien to me now.

This "Release, update, abandon" cycle of Blitz Research really irked me.  Especially when it happened to Blitzmax after all the others had gone the same way and I'm glad I made the decision to quit when I did.  Tried Monkey, briefly, but it was an ordeal.  Way too much faff.
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Dabz on August 12, 2019, 02:32:34 PM
Quote
Pretty good at the min! Rough start to the year, mind.  Mum died in January, then the dog got sick and had to be put to sleep in March.  So I was all a bit "Fuck you, 2019" for a while there.  Decided to focus on getting fit again and managed to lose over 30lb in the last ten weeks.  So, plodding on.  Mountain bike doesn't know what's hit it. :D

So sorry to hear about your mam and doggle matey, your head must of been spinning! :(

Wow, shifted 2 and a bit stone, that takes some doing mind, so well done for that, I need to drop a bit myself really, not as half as active as I was and its coming to the point where I've got enough chins to open my own china town! :P

Anyway, good to hear your still kicking and everything is settled down! ;)

Dabz
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Dabz on August 12, 2019, 02:51:55 PM
Wrong thread

Dabz
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: GfK on August 13, 2019, 01:41:02 PM
So sorry to hear about your mam and doggle matey, your head must of been spinning! :(

Wow, shifted 2 and a bit stone, that takes some doing mind, so well done for that, I need to drop a bit myself really, not as half as active as I was and its coming to the point where I've got enough chins to open my own china town! :P

Anyway, good to hear your still kicking and everything is settled down! ;)

Dabz
It was weird - mum, never shed a tear.  Dog, I was a fucking wreck.  ::)

What you been on with anyway?  I remember you left FB a while back, I did too.  I don't go to that 'other' so-called programming/moaning/obituary/lookatme site any more either.  I hang about on Twitter but that's about it these days.
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Dabz on August 13, 2019, 06:59:17 PM
Quote
It was weird - mum, never shed a tear.  Dog, I was a fucking wreck.

Its a weird one, but surprisingly, that isn't uncommon mind... Though, I still understand how much of a nightmare you had, especially so close together, you probably was wondering where the next boot was coming from, thankfully, as it sound, there wasnt another one, so thats good!

Quote
What you been on with anyway?  I remember you left FB a while back, I did too.

Programming wise, just playing with AGK, when I can be arsed, erm, still at Nissan doing the fire maintenance thing, learnt italian, well, enough to get by and finally donned a pair of otter socks and my new love is diving, been chucking myself in the North-Sea, did some in Turkey and I've got a trip booked to Genoa in November to do a bit as well, so aye, its been all go! :)

Facebook wise, yep, I went back on for a little bit but people spoil it with their bollocks, so I come back off... I cannot be arsed with that, just because their living lies and as miserable as shit doesnt give them the right to inflict it on other people, and facebook is full of people like that, its shite and I just pulled the plug again... I dont want or need it, in fact, I try and keep out of negativity all together, okay you cannot dodge it all as the world seems to be built on it nowadays, but I do my best to make sure I'm cheery and not dreary! :D <--- See what I did there... Eh! Eh! :D

So, online social activity, pretty much here, and on the odd occasion, I log onto Twitter to have a pop at the odd MP when I read some complete bollocks they've spurted out in the news. Gordon Brown was the last one, pissed my pension up the wall, spent 5 mins as PM, wasnt elected directly (Which is apparently a big deal nowadays, but, not back then, just another "when it suits" setup), and the man dares to comment thinking he knows better, and when a bloke who is responsible for me working till I literally drop down dead talks utter shite, well, I need to have a word in his shell like, and Twitter is great for that! :D hehehe

Dabz
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: GfK on August 13, 2019, 09:57:40 PM
I've been blocked on Twitter by Stan Collymore, and Alistair Stewart off of the news!  :))
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Xerra on August 14, 2019, 07:11:31 AM
Facebook wise, yep, I went back on for a little bit but people spoil it with their bollocks, so I come back off... I cannot be arsed with that, just because their living lies and as miserable as shit doesnt give them the right to inflict it on other people, and facebook is full of people like that, its shite and I just pulled the plug again... I dont want or need it, in fact, I try and keep out of negativity all together, okay you cannot dodge it all as the world seems to be built on it nowadays, but I do my best to make sure I'm cheery and not dreary!

I did exactly the same thing at the start of the year for the same reason. Friends keep asking where I've gone but I've yet to feel any kind of desire to go back. It's like watching other people's lives instead of just getting on with your own. Same kind of reason I hate reality TV shows - load of fucking bollocks.
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Derron on August 14, 2019, 07:24:23 AM
Quote
Same kind of reason I hate reality TV shows
Just think about _who_ would freely accept to be part of a reality show - are they what you could call "normal people" or are they in your opinion not hmm super mental healthy / "dumb" / less well educated / ... ? Think about that. Think about that when hearing someone say "but in TV they have shown that..." or "the people in that show yesterday did". They do not speak for YOU.
I do not watch TV anymore - except maybe if there is a news show running. Normally I read news and on my TV-screen I watch fictional stuff (movies and series).
I have a Facebook account just to post about updates of my game. Some years ago I needed it to see results of tests in the university as people uploaded photos of the result lists.
I also have a twitter account - just using them to automatically twitter out stuff I post for the game on Facebook.
All the other stuff is still happening via forums or email. Maybe I should move on to instragram before the masses finally left the sinking instagram ship for the next "to hype" thing.


bye
Ron

Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: Xerra on August 14, 2019, 05:00:14 PM
I couldn't care less about who would appear on a reality show. I just know I wouldn't ever be one of them. Can't stand that shit on the telly. Only thing our telly is used for is Netflix and playing DVD's or Blue Rays. The only thing I ever watch on the terrestrial channels is Match of the Day and the Snooker - when it's on. I used to watch Top Gear too but have never seen it since Clarkson and Co. departed.

Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: degac on August 30, 2019, 07:01:16 AM
Damn.... again!
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: iWasAdam on August 30, 2019, 08:12:54 AM
It's not the fact that we've been bent over (again), but the loss of the help and resources that was stored there  :'(
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: TomToad on August 30, 2019, 09:21:51 AM
There is a backup of the forum here http://codedan.net/Monkey2/backup/monkeycoder.co.nz/forums/index.html (http://codedan.net/Monkey2/backup/monkeycoder.co.nz/forums/index.html).
Title: Re: Monkey site down for maintenance or is it the end?
Post by: iWasAdam on August 30, 2019, 11:25:10 AM
Great tip :)
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