SyntaxBomb - Indie Coders

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ENAY on May 31, 2018, 02:51:41 AM

Title: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: ENAY on May 31, 2018, 02:51:41 AM
I bet all of you have been recieving e-mails on mass about "We're changing our privacy policy"
Is this something to do with it?

How can they put a "tax on weblinks" ?!



It sounds worrying indeed. Worse than all the SOPA stuff.
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Qube on May 31, 2018, 03:33:28 AM
This is just typical of the EU bureaucracy and why I loathe the whole thing. Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against EU member states at all, it's just I really dislike the EU parliament and it's ever growing power hungry megalomania dictatorship. Those cobweb covered idiots just love power, money and control. The ultimate goal of the EU dictatorship is to have a United States of Europe. Those bunch of corrupt ( and I say corrupt as billions of euro's vanishes every year with no accountability ) unelected, power hungry, interfering dictators need to fall and the sooner the better.

What ever happened to just having free movement of goods within the EU? - That was a great idea. That was the original idea. But oh no, they couldn't just stop there. The EU dictatorship has more mission / feature creep than all the hobby coders put together.

Anyway, digression aside... Link tax? - Love to see how the EU dictatorship is going to enforce that one globally.
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Naughty Alien on May 31, 2018, 03:47:33 AM
..EU shouldn't exists on the first place..countries should go back to its origins and create free trade zone within Europe and thats perfect..this current setup is nothing but a mutant with no real purpose to exists but to enslave people...literally..
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: ENAY on May 31, 2018, 04:19:50 AM
I've been reading into it and it sounds really bad.

Since linked websites and linked source of references will be taxed, if an independent news source and not the MSM uses them, they can claim copyright. Yes, websites and data will be copyrighted so you can't just use them.

The European Union don't want another Brexit THAT much...
If you don't have any good ideas, destroy all the good ideas so only bad ideas are left.

I tried accessing

https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/deleteart13?source=feed_text

and it said my account had been using suspicious activity and I needed to enter a phone number to continue. Some serious shit is going down, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: GaborD on May 31, 2018, 08:10:59 AM
This is what you get when you combine crony capitalist lobbying and authoritarian tendencies with old out of touch politicians who have no real clue about the topics they discuss.
Was to be expected to be honest.



Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Henri on May 31, 2018, 09:53:49 AM
I take it that you are all British ?

-Henri
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Holzchopf on May 31, 2018, 10:34:36 AM
I feel like there's a certain negativity in this community ::) I've watched the video and think think there are a few assumptions made. Or statements I'd like to have explained :-\

I mean:
Quote from: https://saveyourinternet.eu
How is it threatened? The European Commission and the Council want to destroy the Internet as we know it and allow big companies to control what we see and do online. Should Article 13 of the Copyright Directive proposal be adopted, it will impose widespread censorship of all the content you share online. The European Parliament is the only one that can step in and Save your Internet.

Yeah, the question in title is good. But does the text answer it in any way? NO. Every statement in this text brings the "how is the internet threatened?" up again. Perfect example of a clickbait lead-in. I you'd like me to take that seriously, quote passages of this article 13 and explain "how this threatens the internet", please.

Oh, and: The copyright is nothing new - there are not GOING TO BE copyrighted websites and data because THEY ALREADY EFFING ARE! Everything in the world is someone's creation and therefore copyrighted - unless clearly "copyleft". If you're afraid of not being able to use copyrighted material any more, you're basically admitting using someone else's creation. And in that case I have bad news for you: Using copyrighted stuff without consent can get you in trouble already today.

It has also been stated, that "Online platforms [...] will be held liable for copyright infringement". I thought this was already the case for a long time? ???

Look at the bright side: If you create something and know it won't be seen anywhere around the world due to filtering, you might probably consider putting it under a creative commons license or similar, increasing accessibility. Especially when it comes to knowledge; sharing is caring ;)

edit ALSO: this could increase awareness about stuff being copyrighted by default. Finally.
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Derron on May 31, 2018, 11:26:02 AM
> Everything in the world is someone's creation and therefore copyrighted - unless clearly "copyleft".

As you seem to come from a DACH country (Deutschland - Germany, Austria, Confoederatio Helvetica - Swiss) you might know about the "Urheberrecht" which conflicts a tiny bit with the "copyleft" thing as we can only do a "gemeinfrei" (free for everyone) but no "Public Domain". Similar stuff can be said about other countries. There might even be "kingdoms" which have a "everything you do is property of the king"-law (not a real law if executive judicative and legislative are a one-man-show).

The real problem of everything is: if someone from Ghana tells you that the thing they uploaded is "copyleft" and you use it until someone approaches claiming ownership of that "copyleft" item, you are fu**ed. You could try to get back the sued money from the Ghana dude but good luck. Also to sue someone you need to make sure to have a lawyer in that country (you cannot take your German lawyer to sue an Brazilian ... ok, that topic would lead to the ACTA/TTIP/... discussions as they would allow such thing under certain circumstances).


Regarding "governmental directed internet": do not think of your level of intelligence but of the "intelligence of the masses". They need to get protected as they are also allowed to vote who becomes "the government" (directly or indirectly - they are allowed to do their "democratic duty"). As long as you allow the dumb mass to use the internet, you have to accept all the limitations which come with this "right". And without the dumb mass you might get a more liberate internet - but way less people to sell your stuff, to read your "not that advanced" fan fictions, play your "indie games", buy your pop-music, ...

People also accept that using a street needs all "users" to follow certain rules. So a small restriction in the internet does have similar effects. The amount of spice makes a meal delicious or non-eatable. Same for laws, restrictions and so on.

bye
Ron
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: GaborD on May 31, 2018, 11:43:39 AM
Yeah, sure, the video is one sided. There are surely also good intentions by people working on this and copyright should be enforced much better (especially on the net).
None the less what is being proposed is another big step on a very slippery slope and will lead to a huge mess.
Some of the rules sound like they will kill off legitimate businesses/platforms, or at least make them much less maintainable in the EU. (which probably means some of the patform holders will just exclude the EU from their business)

They essentially went like this:
"Hey Voss, I want to hang a picture, there is a nail that needs to be hammered into this wall"... "Sure, no problem, let me get my 20 ton wrecking ball."
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Naughty Alien on May 31, 2018, 02:05:47 PM
Quote
I take it that you are all British ?

..not really..just a pissed off folks who cant see country built by our ancestors getting mugged by cheap thugs from africa and what not, while native people struggling because of that.. >:D >:D
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Qube on May 31, 2018, 02:23:13 PM
I take it that you are all British ?

Lol, what's that got to do with it? :P

I feel like there's a certain negativity in this community ::)

I'll put my hand up and say yes, I'm fed up with the dictatorship, money grabbing and interference from the unelected EU parliament. For years and years they've grabbed more power, demanded more money, overridden sovereign countries laws and gone way beyond the initial mandate behind the EU.
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Xerra on May 31, 2018, 06:23:35 PM
I'll put my hand up and say yes, I'm fed up with the dictatorship, money grabbing and interference from the unelected EU parliament. For years and years they've grabbed more power, demanded more money, overridden sovereign countries laws and gone way beyond the initial mandate behind the EU.

I'm going to second that. I hate politics and anything to do with it but I generally don't comment on the subject because I've only voted a few times, so I'd be a hypocrite for moaning about something I had a chance to vote on but didn't.

I'm one of the many who voted for Brexit - not because I don't like countries being joined at the hip and all  the good things that would bring, but because it's run by money-grabbing, greedy assholes who are just in it to line their own pockets, or grasp as much power as they can get. None of them give any kind of toss about Joe-Public - in any of the countries they're supposed to represent.
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Henri on May 31, 2018, 09:00:00 PM
I hear you :-).




-Henri
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: ENAY on June 01, 2018, 02:44:50 AM
If Brexit means we don't have to abide by the EU rules, then Brexit can't come soon enough.

I was reading Github's statement on the matter.

https://help.github.com/articles/github-privacy-statement/

I honestly don't know how Github is going to be operate. What are they going to do, ban EU countries from using it? That seems to be the only option to be honest. They can hardly change the way the site operates, I mean the whole things works on the exact opposite principle.
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Qube on June 01, 2018, 05:30:59 AM
I hear you :-).
( plus youtube video )
LOL, that's a pretty funny video.

We all knew that if Brexit was voted in then it would lead to the market big wigs panicking. Of course that would happen. Any time a major shift in the accepted / norm happens then it's bound to have an effect. You can't make great forward progress by holding on to the short term up and down happy medium. At some point you have to take a leap of faith and Brexit is a leap of faith that the UK will succeed in ( proving our politicians don't cave in ). There is no reason for the EU to punish, mock and ridicule beyond its own self serving needs.

Over many years I've grown real tired of the EU overruling UK law, imposing laws, introducing laws, demanding more and more money, dictating who can come into the UK and who can't. For example, an unemployed ex con from an EU member state can breeze into the UK with pretty much no questions asked, yet a highly skilled Indian surgeon and his family have much less chance. What kind of backward system is that?. Priority for immigrants should be based on skill set and not their country of origin dictated by the EU parliament.

Of course there are those that shout loudly that everyone who voted for Brexit are far right racists. Hmm, from my point of view giving priority to EU states over the rest of the world is both Xenophobic and racist. Surely the moral high ground for EU values should be to encompass global talent and not just those in the little / big boys club?

As said before, I've no problem with any EU member state whatsoever. My issue is with the napoleon complex EU parliament so desperate to have power.

I do have a lot more to rant about but I think I'm bordering on being added to some auto bot anti EU watch list :P
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Derron on June 01, 2018, 06:51:56 AM
Quote from: Qube
Priority for immigrants should be based on skill set and not their country of origin dictated by the EU parliament.

So you only want to do "cherry picking" ?

The problem with cherry picking from neighbours cherry tree is (?) - yes, that there are no good cherries left on that neighbours tree.


bye
Ron
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: ENAY on June 01, 2018, 10:36:28 AM
Cherry picking is a good idea. Why would you accept someone who has nothing to offer?

This is coming from someone who had to painfully go through all sorts of hoops to get employed and live in Japan. Japan is very strict on immigration and whether that's a good thing or not depends on your Political view I guess. For me it's a good idea because if just anybody can come in, then well it causes an massive issues in all parts of that society.

If you let immigrants in that possess a certain level of skill, you're also also highly likely letting people in who actually want to live in your country and not want to cause trouble, sponge off the system.

London Mayor Sadiq Khan famously said "Get Used To' Islamic Attacks" and that they are "Part and Parcel of living in a big city".

Well I call bullshit on that, in Japan, Tokyo and 5 other massive cities bigger than London have no Islamic Terrorism. I don't think Japan has had any terrorism from a foreigner ever and those are the biggest cities in the world.

I'm also really annoyed by that stupid "Diversity is our strength" argument. Well which country has the strongest immigration rules and fights to protect its nation and culture and also has the richest and well known cuisine, culture in the world?

Oh wait, that's Japan as well.

It's almost as if opening the flood gates makes problems decades down the line for any country involved.

This is the heart of the matter of which really annoys me about the EU.
The EU wants to unite Europe and the free movement of people but yet it wants to restrict the free movement of thoughts ideas and Internet traffic. The world is already connected, thanks to the Internet and they want to split up facebook by regions. It's quite literally an unelected totalitarian government with no way of switching it off at this point. I'm honestly surprised more people aren't more worried about the EU than they are. I'm sure they genuinely think Brexit isn't going to happen or they will try and stall for 10-20 years so that during THEIR lifetimes they still get all the benefits that the EU is giving to them.

Check out the comment sections on this video (video published yesterday)
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Qube on June 01, 2018, 12:50:59 PM
Quote from: Qube
Priority for immigrants should be based on skill set and not their country of origin dictated by the EU parliament.

So you only want to do "cherry picking" ?

The problem with cherry picking from neighbours cherry tree is (?) - yes, that there are no good cherries left on that neighbours tree.
I never mentioned "cherry picking". That's the kind of twisting of word argument that gets presented a lot. My point was quite clear. The EU government should not dictate to it's member states who they can and can not allow into the hosting nation.

It makes complete sense to have an immigration policy based on quality over quantity.
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Naughty Alien on June 01, 2018, 01:18:02 PM
...'cherry picking' is a good thing, if it comes to that immigrants 'must be allowed' for whatever reason..similar to what ENAY said..here in Malaysia, immigration rules are very specific...you must have some valuable skills to stay here, and when you do stay, you cant have malaysian passport, ever..what you can have is PR, which allows you to do stay for a life, do business, government grants and everything else as any local, except..voting..and i think its very good...why? Because local society stays intact from imported influence and at same time do benefit from having foreign expertise...otherwise, it will be situation as i have seen in Berlin and Frankfurt, with signboards showing that 'woman in skirt is not a prostitute'....i mean..wtf..why this nonsense is needed?? Streets are full of young folks, obviously non europeans, doing nothing but gathering, while host people working off their ass and pay for expenses of this imported jokers...they should all go to Merkel home and stay there, let her clean up after them..
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Qube on June 01, 2018, 01:54:42 PM
Quote
they should all go to Merkel home and stay there, let her clean up after them..
I don't know about that. I do think the flood gate approach was a badly thought out idealistic plan. It didn't work, it failed miserably on many fronts.

I think every well off country should help out but help out by not being over flooded. I also think society could do more to help integration. Those are sensible things to which each nation should make their own rules and laws and once more, not be dictated to about who, what, when and why.
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Holzchopf on June 01, 2018, 01:55:59 PM
I disassociate myself from such far-right views.

Do you realize how inhuman it sounds to praise cherry-picking in times when people leave their homeland due to life-threatening crises?

I know there are also those who try to sneak in and profit from social systems. And we all know this discussion ain't about people who try to escape war. It's about "article 13" and somehow derailed so heavily that I can't help but make clear that I don't share the views that can be interpreted in the words you wrote. I won't say it's what you mean (because I hope it's not what you mean). But still, this is a public community where everyone can read what you wrote. What you WROTE, not necessarily what you MEANT.

I'd be more than happy if you could bring back the discussion about article 13. If it's a serious matter, it would be helpful to break down the paragraphs in this article. For those interested and/or don't see what's all the fuss about. PLEASE ???
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Naughty Alien on June 01, 2018, 02:11:10 PM
Quote
What you WROTE, not necessarily what you MEANT.

..if you referring on to me, i wrote what i think..and everyone is free to read it as im actually speaking that very openly in real life..while i do understand life-threatening crisis very well, i also completely dont understand how so many young and army capable man, decide to run away instead of fighting for their homeland...what i dont understand is, if they were looking for better life and start new life somewhere (perfectly understand that), why then so many criminal came in to country and done by same group of people who looks for shelter and new beginning? Me myself left Europe for good(i cant stand europe/germany way it is today and some of my family member have seen a prison for just expressing their doubts over WW2) and im immigrant, if you will, on another side of the world, and i see myself working hard on my own instead of lurking trough the streets and thinking how to screw something..
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Qube on June 01, 2018, 02:44:59 PM
I disassociate myself from such far-right views.

Do you realize how inhuman it sounds to praise cherry-picking in times when people leave their homeland due to life-threatening crises?
This is classic “your views differ from mine and therefore you have far right views”

I think you are perhaps cherry picking parts of my posts?. If you read all the posts made I actually do promote fair immigration. I’m just dead against being told by the EU parliament where from, how many, etc etc. Is it so wrong to want your own country to make its own path in history and not want the ever expanding dictatorship of EU law?

I agree that this thread should get back on topic :)
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Holzchopf on June 01, 2018, 03:29:26 PM
I think you are perhaps cherry picking parts of my posts?

Don't worry, after you stated you never mentioned cherry picking, I wouldn't address you with my words about cherry picking. Yep, you were just unfortunate enough to post while I was typing my rant so it looked liked I was referring to your post (which I saw, thanks to a red alert bar saying someone posted while I typed. But I thought I'm leaving it as is, since @-ing the ones I was addressing would be unnaycessarily Naughty  ::) )

Sorry for "off-topic-ing" again.

edit
Now I've read this article (http://www.alphr.com/politics/1009470/article-13-EU-what-is-it-copyright). The key part (in my view) is,
Quote
[...]platform providers should (deep breath) “take measures to ensure the functioning of agreements concluded with rightholders for the use of their works or other subject-matter or to prevent the availability on their services of works or other subject-matter identified by rightholders through the cooperation with the service providers.”

Those measures should be “appropriate and proportionate”, and the platforms should provide rightsholders with “adequate reporting on the recognition and use of the works and other subject-matter”.

I think for a forum like this (where technically it is possible to upload copyrighted material), having one or two persons checking the contents regularly and remove them if needed or when the rightholder asks for it like maybe within 72 hours, is “appropriate and proportionate”. While for Youtube setting up AI algorithms with all kind of image and sound recognition that prevent uploading such material, is “appropriate and proportionate”.

Motions always sound huge and scary in the beginning because it's kinda the nature of politics to castrate them a little. So if you want X, you better ask for 50*X, because otherwise you're left with something that's only 2% of what you want and suddenly it doesn't even matter any more if it's accepted or declined. Same goes for those who fight it: If you're afraid X contains 2% of insanity, you gotta act as it's 100% of insanity because otherwise you'll just hear "meh, it's not THAT bad". For huge masses it works. But there are individuals who like to do the maths themselves. And they won't be that impressed by one-sided videos  ;)
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Steve Elliott on June 01, 2018, 09:47:44 PM
Call it as you see it.  But we are a small country that has little industrial base.  So without EU backing we are floating about trying to strike a deal with people like Trump.  Who has just slapped a 25% tax on our steel and 10% on our Aluminium imports to the US!

Special relationship, my arse.  We are very alone and will get shafted.  The EU is far from perfect, but with a UK Government that is incompetent and only looks after the wealthy - on top of Brexit and austerity...Then I wish I could afford to leave this titanic of a country.
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: MikeHart on June 02, 2018, 09:01:23 AM
Interesting to read some comments about Merkel land / Germany here. Nice. And thank you for showing your thoughts so clearly. I can't wait for the day my country stops supporting half of the eu. Bye.
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Qube on June 02, 2018, 09:14:20 AM
Steve, you are spot on in all of that and it shames me how weak our current government / climate is. Our leadership is banal and so consumed with self preservation it's embarrassing.

I voted for Brexit as there is too much corruption and power hungry conglomerates across the EU to make it fair. I'd love the UK to be part of a very tight integrated EU. For all the EU nations to join up and genuinely become as one great emerging nation.

As a very odd side thing. One of my personal proudest moments was during the first Gulf war. To see UK and German air force working together just showed that we're here for each other. I thought that was great, a proud moment for Europe and to show how nations can move on and get along together.

Of course England vs Germany in football is a totally different scenario and one way beyond political resolution :P

Crap, thread derail again... Sorry :(
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Qube on June 02, 2018, 09:32:20 AM
Interesting to read some comments about Merkel land / Germany here. Nice. And thank you for showing your thoughts so clearly. I can't wait for the day my country stops supporting half of the eu. Bye.
Yeah I read the negative post towards Germany. No need for that what so ever. I don't like it and it needs to stop right now.
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Derron on June 02, 2018, 11:23:10 AM
I wanted to post this earlier this morning (before MikeHarts post):


People seem to only blame Merkel and EU ... and I bet, I really bet that none of us - and most of the others - would not do better. Nobody knows what would have happened it we did not have done the "flood gate opening". Some countries might have had sent back ships not worth getting called "ship". Some countries might have had opened big slums/ghettos villages for "these people".
Nobody knows what would happen - some were right with assumptions, some not.


@ Naughty Alien
So why were parts of your family in prison - what did they "doubt" on WW2? Holocaust?
Regardless of what happened during wars: winner forms the truth to their will. Nonetheless I think that certain things happened as it is told us that it happened, there are just too many evidences.
Also I think we had a similar issue at blitzmax.com with someone doubting stuff happening in concentration camps (some "smoke" stuff). To say that these things were fake, is a big big punch in the face of people who suffered directly or indirectly on the brutality of dictatorships (may it be Nazi, Stalin's gulags + troops, Chinese/Mao ...).

For now I do not see _any_ reason to blame "Germany" for current events. Think Angela Merkel does a pretty good job - even if some decisions were not the best, but maybe it were the best available at that moment. Things got even worse with Trump - but for Trump people prefer doing "jokes" while for Germany people only express angryness...

So many people in the EU benefit from laws the EU made, some suffered from it - and especially labor is always a problem. "They do take away our jobs". Guess what the West Germany people told about us East germany ones when "countries joined who never should have been split apart" ? They told exactly the same. Jobs/labor is opinion driving the masses. Higher educated people always could get jobs - also in other countries. But as said this is "cherry picking" and taking away something from a country without "giving" is just as bad as slavery or "colonial behaviour": you exhaust a country. You exhaust until there is no chance for a country to stand on its own feet anymore.

Take all the doctors, engineers, ... from a country, all the intellectual (and not religion "poisoned" ones) and what is left is something brutal forces/religious leaders can control.
To not distinguish between poor, uneducated, educated ... brings a lot of criminals, uneducated, ... people that is for sure - but it also makes people in that country identify themselves as "respected" human being - instead of a 4th (not even 3rd class!) class person.


All of us (maybe partly even Yue) live way over world's average - and blame each other for behaving egoistic, corrupt, .... Most of the people would cheat here and there for a benefit: you are 15 and until 14 you only pay 50%. Many of us would cheat to save a bit of money (especially if money is rare in that moment).
Now imagine you want to flee from your country and know that they cannot send you back if you have no passport/id card - follow their rules and throw away that thing.
Now imagine you know that 16 and above makes sending back easier: why not say you are 15 instead of 20?

I do not think it is _good_ that they do such things, but I understand it and am pretty sure that I would do the same if I were in their position.


@ Criminals
You need a bit of "bad boy"-ness to survive these long trails from origin in Africa/Far East to Europe. You either have the money or need (slightly criminal) energy to reach the end of your route. This is why many younger people came - and many of them were male. Would you send your daughter or your son on a dangerous route? Would more likely 5 woman (not allowed to do stuff alone ...another story) start their journey to Europe, or 5 guys knowing each other since 10+ years?

Nonetheless people should get send back if they do not follow the guidelines of the country they want to live in: so they cannot claim freedom of their religion if they want to live in a village enforcing a specific religion: choose another village and voila. I also cannot visit their countries and go into their churches while wearing shoes - or short throusers or whatever they dislike. Behave as "guest" and people would accept you. This brings us back to the teenagers/young man: when you were young you also tried to be "over everything". Nobody was able to tell you what to do and what not (exception: maybe the police :-)).


@ internet
For me the EU is always kind of an "USA" approach. Many little countries with their individual governments under one single on-top-goverment. Like federal states. And yes, some benefit from it, others only have costs. In Germany the bigger federal states like Bavaria always blame others (like Brandenburg - with higher unemployement rate) to be states they have to pay for. If you go smaller - you will find the same issues even in towns (with some areas being the "problematic areas" and the other ones being the "wealthy areas").

So if the EU was some kind of "USA" then of course the laws are there to create kind of unified standards for all participants of the EU. Biggest problem is: there are surely people in the EU goverment with knowledge of the subject - and especially the people working for them are freaks, geeks, nerds - with knowledge. But everything needs to get signed, voted for ... and yay, results are laws which need to get refined sooner or later.
Do not forget how "young" the EU is - only 2 decades (ignoring the "preparation" - like the "Ecu" :-)). Such big big - nearly semi-global - stuff takes time to form, to make people get "used" to something. Nowerdays it is so easy to blame and flame on the internet - but many of us were not fighting on the streets for their rights. It is easier to vote (or not) and then blame that all the politicians are corrupt or only want to gain benefits.  These people also blame their bosses to drive big cars instead of adding 2-3% to the wage of their employees. They also blame that some CEOs earn too much money for "doing nothing". It is so easy to blame... but not to shame!


bye
Ron
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: cpsmith0191 on June 02, 2018, 12:52:19 PM
wow, diversity of opinion a very good thing in my view, but please read the proposals before jumping all over them. Also a fact or two wouldn't come amiss. European union is not a dictatorship, the members of the European parliament are elected and the commissioners are elected by the euro MP's. Just like UK parliament where we vote for our MP's who select a cabinet to rule over us. All laws formed are subject to veto by member states, if passed are implemented by the member states elected bodies by vote of that elected body. Many UK people voted to stay, almost as many who voted to leave.
Japan has its home grown perpetrators of atrocities (nerve gas attack on underground system with a nerve agent developed in the UK). We in the UK are a multicultural lot from way back, even if we don't want to admit it. (Angles, Saxons, Jutes etc) Since the EU was formed European powers have had the longest period of peace (between member states) in its turbulent history. And finally 'chased out of ones country for questing WWII' reminded me of the service men who returned from liberating Belsan after demob, only to find some nut jobs claiming that the Nazi's didn't try to and exterminate the disabled, Jews, Slavs and Gypsies. They chased the perpetrators of these lies out of Hyde Park. Have fun cps
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: GaborD on June 02, 2018, 01:39:44 PM
Interesting to read some comments about Merkel land / Germany here. Nice. And thank you for showing your thoughts so clearly. I can't wait for the day my country stops supporting half of the eu. Bye.
Yeah I read the negative post towards Germany. No need for that what so ever. I don't like it and it needs to stop right now.

Agreed, hate is never the solution to anything.
At this point I would like to see us pull a Brexit, let's call it Grexit or Deuxit, and stop wasting our money and effort on this nonsense if all we get for it is pointless hatred and people yelling "gimme mooooaarrr" anyway.

And I say this as someone who used to be for unification, because that is the only way for humanity to move forward to better times.
But quite frankly, I gave up. Let's be honest, humans don't deserve better times. They will hate and be greedy until we all nuke or poison ourselves to death. :)
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Steve Elliott on June 02, 2018, 01:58:38 PM
Such a happy thread, ooo look somebodies posted more Competition Screenshots  ;)

https://www.syntaxbomb.com/index.php/topic,4566.msg17277/topicseen.html#new
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Qube on June 02, 2018, 03:41:08 PM
Such a happy thread, ooo look somebodies posted more Competition Screenshots  ;)

https://www.syntaxbomb.com/index.php/topic,4566.msg17277/topicseen.html#new
Talk about thread derailment :P :))

Thread topic "Yikes! This isn't going to end well." - Such a prophetic title ;)

Let's draw a line under it before it's gets totally out of hand.

Probably best to try and avoid political / religious stuff. We're coders and our logic goes way above and beyond political thinking ;D
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: ENAY on June 04, 2018, 02:23:58 AM
I hate it when people assume that just because you aren't against unfiltered immigration that you are immediately right wing.

By the way, Japan has been ruled by the social democrat party since like, forever. It has been right wing in decades. Japan is very liberal and open as a society. There is rarely on a ban on anything, even religious thing, and being liberal. For example did you know a man can take off Paternity for a whole year paid for by the government? Japan is probably one of the most liberal countries in the world and its government is very left wing.

Just saying, allowing anybody, whether you're left or right leaning. It doesn't matter, I like to think I'm neither, and that it's just plain common sense. Countries succeed and fail from religious indoctrination and what's in people's heads. Each person who enters your country who you think you've "saved", well you've just descrimated against the millions who are still there and need saving.

I mean you can still fake guns and knifes here in 100yen stores that look like the real thing. These are kids toys! Japan hasn't succumb to mass censorship and banning of everything and seems to realise that it's all about culture, stupid people do stupid things, stupid things don't do stupid things.

And of course, not letting in stupid people or unskilled immigrants who will be a drain on the society. Show me anywhere where this isn't a good idea? If you're fleeing from your country, flee to the neighbouring country, or better still, get governments to fix what's wrong with YOUR country. Every person that flees makes it easier for the all bad stuff to continue.

Also due to basic math, Europe is like 15-20% of the world. If everyone mass fleed form their country, well there would literally be no space left. Europe will be engulfed.

Sorry to go off a tangent there. But yeah the EU is doomed, and all this policy does, justs helps the EU to do a communications blackout on all the terrible shit that's going down.

PS Sure you've seen it already, but there was an update on the situation. Which doesn't sound too great...

Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Naughty Alien on June 04, 2018, 07:09:49 AM
@Derron

Im sorry for delay..weekends im spending working on my boat so i have no internet there. Yes, it was related to holocaust questioning, which my entire family voiced out, and my uncle was friend with Ernst Zündel, which was reason more for whole jail thing...of course, media there shows nothing of this in real scale (sending people to jail for this sort of thing)...fact that people like Dr. Germar Rudolf (Max Planck institute degree holder, which disavowed Rudolf’s efforts in the field after his research, and of course he got 14 months of imprisonment), did full actual research on topic with chemical decomposition and analysis, on the site, which shows rather different picture of 'holocaust'...but hey..freedom of speech and all that, doesn't exists anymore in Germany...
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Derron on June 04, 2018, 09:16:17 AM
Denying something which most propably happened might be called "free speech" by someone - but "free speech" is something I do not like to have in all regards. "Free Speech" also means you could say to others that Naughty Alien is a rapist - they just prepend an "imho" to make it an opinion. That would not be nice - or would you let them say that things? What if they go to the TV shows repeating what they just said? What if your neighbours start looking at you?

"Free Speech" is a privilegue which can get misused. Which is they should always follow some simple rules.


@ WW2
There were plenty of Ex-SS, Ex-Nazi-whatever politicians in the German governments after WW2. Some did hide their personal history with the dictatorship/regime, others did not. Some blamed to were "forced" to take part, others "claimed" to were forced to take part ...
Some politicians were promoted to the government nonetheless, just because they needed some certain experience, knowledge of the people, ... whatever benefits they got from it.

Compared to that times things changed for now: now you loose your politics job because you forgot some cite marks in your dissertation / diploma - others totally cheated on their works, loose their job and now work in good positions in private institutions. Things change.

Nonetheless: you cannot tell me - and others, that people did not die in concentration camps, that they did not have to go naked taking a "shower" and so on. You cannot make all these survivors "liers". Sure, some things might not have been happening, some things might even have had happened worse than reported (eg. rape by the red army, or other soldiers in hostile land - who would like to report in all details by how many man exactly they got penetrated in this or that way ?).
You can tell that Hannibal wasn't the man who initially had the plan to conquer the Alps with elephants. Yes you can do as their is only some written stuff about it. But with advance in technology you not only got possibilities to fake but also possibilities to document stuff. People all over the world read about stuff - creating a huge "cloud" for memory. Yes, it might be biased (based on what pictures you show them, what articles you give to read). Nonetheless the "truth" would not just be expressed by a handful of people who in the same time also think the earth is flat or that the earth has a inner hole where people live -> conspiracy fans.

What I accept is: that Germany gets more repressed for certain things than other countries (think of what happened in Russian Gulags, what happened in Vietnam, Korea, ...). This is what is best described as "the winner defines the truth" (with Vietnam and Korea being a bit of an exception). Once you have one looser to punch, the whole gang comes to punch over and over - even ancestors of these loosers get punches then, and ancestors of the ancestors still get compared to them (just read what Greek, Italian ... people write about Merkel - and how fast they call us German "Nazis" if we think of our own country first). Even WW1 made the winners taking way more than what they should (just think of the Elsass). That is another story but it exposes how winner countries exhausted the defeated loosers.
BTW is/was Japan not unguilty there too - with seeing other nations as "underevolved" or "cheap humans".


Our (German) history is not shiny in all periods - but we have had so much shiny moments in the past 1000 years (not talking about the "1000 years" in the sense of the 3rd reich!). Nonetheless only the Nazi-think is what gets fetched from our history to blame us for bad decisions we do now (opening the gates for fleeing people, requesting money saving from Greek, Italian, Portugeeze, ...). Just think of why people tell the world that "Berlin" dictates what the EU has to do? You know that they say "Berlin" because it has this "ohh ohh" history thing attached. I think the German part in the EU government has a big vote: "we" give a big part of the money (the one who pays is the one who says...). Nonetheless I think we try to influence to our benefit way way less than we could. All the small countries have bigger votes than their "input" (monetary, social influence, job opportunitie,...) would equal to.
Most of the EU laws allow smaller, former exhausted countries, to breathe, to grow, to step up - but we (Germany/Austria/Swiss, UK, France, ... the "wealthy" countries) are the ones who cry about loosing jobs, getting lower wages as other offer stuff cheaper. We also blame Amazon for closing book stores (which we did not visit since Amazon was sending us the books so comfortable). As said multiple times: it is way easier to blame and cry about lost stuff instead of thinking about the fact that we (the "wealthy" countries) might have been living over the average for years - on the costs of others (like energy - only transferable, not createable). You cannot become rich without making another one poor. And now somebody is trying to make things more equal. So yes, the "rich" (even if you are the poorest among the riches) will always crie. And the poor ones will cry out of envy (understandable! - I would do too If I cannot buy enough food for my family but see German/UK/... people going shopping).


Sorry for stopping now - think I would write and write and then start repeating myself over and over.


bye
Ron
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Matty on June 04, 2018, 09:55:24 AM
I've always been impressed with Germany's industrial ability, and engineering ability and ability to produce high quality products - and valuable products.

Whereas China produces mass produced crap for cheap prices, Germany seems to produce high end stuff that allows them to get away with higher wages and so on (as compared to South East Asian apparent cheap (slave?) labour in industry)

Australia could really have done well to follow the Germans in producing good quality products that allow high wages to be maintained....

I could be wrong being on the other side of the world but that's how it looks.
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Kryzon on June 04, 2018, 10:40:25 AM
I think the western multinationals that order from China are to blame, they probably negotiate for the best price/quality ratio (plus stuff like planned obsolescence etc.).
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Derron on June 04, 2018, 11:24:43 AM
China isn't that bad: they can produce cheap and fast with an "price dependend quality" (the cheaper the lower the quality). But wages in China increase.

There is only one continent left which could get "exhausted/exploited" labor wise. This is Africa. While work/labor costs in Africa are low the problem there is that they cannot work as fast as China/Asia can. I am not saying that Africans are dumb or so - it's just that they do not even have the "base" to do industrial work. What happened in the early 20th century (maybe earlier) in Asia was not happen that much in Africa. So while there are millions of people "exhaustible/exploitable" by American or European (or Asian ...) companies, they cannot produce the same amount for the money yet.

Sooner or later they won't find cheaper workers for Chinese factories and then people will have to check out Africa ... will become interesting. Exception is if people start to prefer "done here, bought here" approaches (even if that means that you can no longer buy fresh strawberries in snowy christmas times).


Btw the inner-european trade is easier than before with the EU - as it does need less agreements than before. But also needs more laws, laws which count for every country + national laws.
(just to find the conneciton back to the "internet-EU-laws" topic).

Was there a similar discussion when the DCMA was created - and counted for all federal states of the USA? ... Ok forget that question, people in the US even argued against Obamacare ... I mean, we talk about a country which let's injured people stay injured if they cannot finance an insurance.


bye
Ron
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Naughty Alien on June 04, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
Quote
Denying something which most propably happened might be called "free speech" by someone - but "free speech" is something I do not like to have in all regards. "Free Speech" also means you could say to others that Naughty Alien is a rapist - they just prepend an "imho" to make it an opinion. That would not be nice - or would you let them say that things? What if they go to the TV shows repeating what they just said? What if your neighbours start looking at you?

"Free Speech" is a privilegue which can get misused. Which is they should always follow some simple rules.

..im certain it happened at some degree...but mass executions as described, 6 million?? Not at all. Since when expressing of honest doubts, backed up by scientific evidence is an insult which lead to prison? Since when people lose their scientific degrees because they express such doubts?? What science has to do with non scientific point of view of any kind, someone has?? This is nothing about free speech abuse but abuse of power. Why is every discussion about jewish history subject of crime all around world and not any other nation ? Why? Is Poland going to be subject of diplomatic problems with Germany because they express their opinion about holocaust which is not something popular today. My question is, why is act of questioning that specific group of people, a crime worldwide..why? Other people suffered way more, with way more casualties, but hey..its fine to make joke about them or talk whatever you want..but this specific group of people, expelled from 189 countries worldwide in written history, are somehow, 'holly', yet murdering palestinians past 50 years, and thats fine....freedom of speech my ass..just corruption as it was written long time ago, but nobody really read....


"I think there is a resurgence of anti-Semitism because at this point in time Europe has not yet learned how to be multicultural. And I think we are going to be part of the throes of that transformation, which must take place. Europe is not going to be the monolithic societies they once were in the last century. Jews are going to be at the centre of that. It’s a huge transformation for Europe to make. They are now going into a multicultural mode and Jews will be resented because of our leading role. But without that leading role and without that transformation, Europe will not survive." Barbara Lerner

..interesting..
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Derron on June 04, 2018, 03:06:50 PM
There might even be "flat earth scientists", also scientists research that wine is healthy while others say it causes cancer. Being a "scientist" does not guarantee for being sane, doing sane things, doing scientific things (means not to manipulate data so the research is successful - until there is one to validate results...), doing ... think you got it.

You can find doubts for many things, even the collider in Cern is center of some "fake" rumors (cannot be...!). Moon landing? Scientists will say that it was not possible that time in the timeframe ... you will find them if you search for them.
BUT ... the majority of scientist will tell the opposite.

The majority of historians "believes" in what is "common sense" (todays "knowledge"). Same for scientists. Somethings might also seem to be "impossible". You never thought that Anders Breivik achieved to kill 77 people in a "one person mission". You would think this is practically impossible but it happened. You think mass-genocide was not possible? Think of African colonisation.

Mass executions not possible? Why? Bullets are cheap, fires fast made, people/prisoners/... to bury mass graves were also available. We (at least I) cannot imagine that such things can happen without your mind going insane, but it happens. It also happened (in a different "dimension") in Vietnam, Korea.
During war and the created "freedom" (as if the fog of war is covering everything) to do things against common sense, moral and law - such things are possible. The more often you do such "kill 10, kill the next 10 ... next monday we do the same" the more "blind" you become towards your personal moral, doubts, ...
Ask yourself why many people say really shabby / ugly things about other cultures, religions (Sinti Roma, Jews, Arabs, Mexicans, ...). Why do things like the KKK exist?

Mass phenomens and mass psychology lead to things which seem to be impossible for a single human mind. Hundreds of Thousands of people crying "Sieg H..." to Hitler. People fighting as "terrorists, People enjoying living under (foreigner allowed) dictatorships ...
Bad things happen if people grow up under these circumstances as for them it becomes "normal".


... long break ...


... becomes "normal": yes even the internet stuff will be a totally different thing in 10-20 years. People start to grow up with it. They do not know the "freedom" we enjoyed in the late 90s and early 00s. Its like the Wild West - we were young and did what we want. People of the future will enjoy a different "grade" of freedom in the internet. They will think our behaviour in the late 90s was "rude", "uncivilized", "raw" ... they will even discuss about a totally different limitation done by new laws (as they see the currently discussed rules as "common practice").


Edit: wanted to do a bit of research - are you really talking about "Germar Rudolf"?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germar_Rudolf (a bit more detailled text than the English one)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germar_Rudolf

and is "scientific reports" were already disproved (eg. by Richard J. Green):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf-Gutachten

I mean: can you _really_ believe someone who says that the gas chambers were only dummies?


bye
Ron
Title: Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
Post by: Qube on June 04, 2018, 06:00:46 PM
Time to lock this thread. There are laws in the EU ( hey, go figure ) about holocaust denial. I'm all for hearing personal views but we're entering crap land now and so it's time to stop, thanks.
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