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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Derron on January 11, 2018, 03:52:17 PM

Title: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Derron on January 11, 2018, 03:52:17 PM
Someone of you spending some money in crypto coins?

Bought some in early december: doge, monero, litecoin and ether. Started with 175 euros and sold my doge coins for 400 some days later. Bought back then when price sunk a bit. "anycoindirect" (as eur-cryptocoin-eur trader) took a big bite when buying/selling, so would have been more.

Since then I am pretty much holding my coins - and tried trading between coins (with no win/loss as the "fees" bite away my wins  - and not everything was a "win" on its own).

Now I am playing a bit with ripple the last days. Using bitstamp to buy/sell them. With big volatiles you can make 20-25% with luck, or at least 10% within some minutes now. Started with ripples 115 euros worth, am now at 400. Helped my little brother to buy some neos too ... when they were buyable for 50 (now at 120). Interesting questions will arise from that as "NEO" allows to claim another currency as some kind of "interest". Interest money has another tax rate than speculative gains ... but that interest is in another currency - so it depends on when you switch them to Euro. Will become interesting.

A pity all the money I win will be 35% for the government at the end (tax) as soon as I reach over 600/year (remember that the first sales were done in last year...so I nearly start afresh these days). Exception is holding - which Is why I am still holding my doge coins (they rised from 0.002 to 0.0012 since I am holding them). Holding them for > 1 year gets rid of the taxes.


Ok, and what about you? Some of you "hodling" crypto coins?

PS: I still remember arguing with a buddy some years ago in the university. He wanted to buy some bitcoins and I denied as I cannot imagine others to accept that widely so there would be no need for me to invest in a "20 euro/bitcoin" thing. I .. should have (while the buddy bought a handful) :-)

bye
Ron
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: GW on January 11, 2018, 05:59:05 PM
Ya, the more I research the coins the more I find myself deeper 'on the fence'. Part of the reason these coins continue to grow in value is because It's so difficult to get your money out. If everyone bought stock in a company and couldn't sell it, It would keep going up.
 
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Derron on January 11, 2018, 07:08:21 PM
Getting them "on your bank" means paying a bit (spread value between "buy" and "sell" is sometimes higher than needed).

Gladly all these costs are taken into the calculation of your tax.  Basically it is some kind of blackbox: Max(0, "out minus in") = "something to pay tax for".

bye
Ron
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Xaron on January 17, 2018, 10:08:31 AM
I'm in Spankchain. (no joke). Entered beginning of December at around 0.00011 ETH (~4.5cent at that point). I think this is one of the few altcoins which will rocket by the end of 2018/beginning 2019. I think they will hit $5-$10 by the end of this year (currently at about $0.40).

Regarding tax: There's no tax here in Germany for it when you hold it for at least 12 months.
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Derron on January 17, 2018, 11:43:31 AM
Yes...12 months. If you sell earlier then ~35% of tax will need to get paid. At least, if you are honest to your government - smaller transactions might be "hideable" for now - until they get experienced enough with the new "thing". Do not forget that since 2018 banks in Europe need to ensure to be able to deliver a complete money-route for 10 years. Means as long as you do not spend your "wins" to China or USA (so you get nice packages of goods delivered - paid with your "coins") it might be traceable up to your bank account.

Spankchain is - like most other coins - not available in the systems I have accounts at (for now bitcoin.de, bitstamp.net and anycoin.eu). Also I somehow dislike the way of having to buy a "intermediate coin" first (in that case Ethereum). I understand that some coins are based on another coin's system.

Also some coins make trading rather complicated - but this is because of their nature of eg. having one single wallet/storage address and an individual "subadress" to allow nearly unlimited clients of one address. I prefer to have single sender-receiver connections and an _optional_ kind of identifier-ID (which might be a duplicate, so no complicate unique-hash-generation-thingy). Just similar to a "subject line" of an email. It is already unique because of its unique ID/Hash, so if one really needs he could store the association in a different table than in the coin's "block chain".

bye
Ron
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on January 12, 2020, 08:04:12 AM
a bit late to the party... (i should have bought some BTC in december 2012, when i first discovered it  ??? arrr!)

i have just bought some (fraction of) bitcoin a few days ago, and i plan to buy a least 1BTC (but i wait to see if the price decreases a little)

not to speculate but rather as a "safe" store of value. (i plan to buy some silver coins too)


@those who buy/sell cryptos :

->can you backup your "wallet"/account offline, regularly, but still have it on an exchange platform (i use coinbase), to buy/sell ?
i suppose that a backup must be done after each transaction to be considered as valid ?

->how do you manage to get back the money (in USD/EUR) without being taxed ? (maybe keep it on a paypal account ? or buy a "temporary money card" ? or open an online bank account which is tolerant regarding cryptos transfers ?)

Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Derron on January 12, 2020, 09:07:39 AM
@ backup

Not really. When you transfer your money from your wallets to an exchange, it lands on one of their wallets and they give you a "virtual" wallet on their system. On their platform you can trade without affecting the "outside" chain.
Your wallet can be backupped once - the "hash" of the wallet. The transactions are not needed to get backupped - as the chain already stores it - so the "network" keeps history of all your transactions (but as said not the ones on the exchanges/trading sites)


@ get back
Taxing is something your country does - so any cheating should not be discussed here. I assume you checkout your money ... and if the platform (bitstamp, binance, ...) cooperates with your tax office then they report it already then it happens automatically. Also if a monetary value bigger than X is transferred from "company X to you" (on your bank account) then your bank might be required to report too.
To "avoid" taxes in Germany you have to "hold" crypto for more than a year. If you "trade" (on a platform) then earnings from this trades are taxable. To minimize or avoid taxes you can need to trade in a way which creates losses.

Buy 1 BTC for 5000 on 01.01.2020
Sell 1 BTC for 5500 on 01.06.2020 -> 500 win (which you would need to pay taxes for)
Buy 1 BTC for 5100 on 01.07.2020
Sell 1 BTC for 4500 on 01.08.2020 -> 600 loss (so you would gain back from the taxes)
Buy 1 BTC for 4600 on 02.08.2020 -> hold this one (one day space is enough to be a new "bought coins to hold for a year")
Sell 1 BTC for 8600 on 01.09.2021 -> tax free win of 4000 (in Germany)


bye
Ron
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on January 12, 2020, 10:30:49 AM
Quote
When you transfer your money from your wallets to an exchange, it lands on one of their wallets and they give you a "virtual" wallet on their system. On their platform you can trade without affecting the "outside" chain.

what ? so if i understand correctly what you wrote, it means that for now i am in the same situation than with a bank account, where the exchange platform owns my money/coins on its own account, and i only have an account on their website, not on the bitcoin system/network ?
so how do i get my own account (id/password) on the bitcoin system/network ?
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Derron on January 12, 2020, 04:13:53 PM
@ exchange
Yes, you handed them over your money (so they "could" potentially use it to trade with it, which does not happen, they earn sooo much by the trading fees which are virtually "not costing anything except server + manpower costs"). So it works similar like a bank - hence the discussions about banking licences etc.

To avoid that:
You just create a wallet ... and use that to "withdraw" the money from the exchange. Each "transfer" costs something - depending on the coin this is the currency itself, or an extra currency (eg for "Neo" you pay in "Gas" - gas is also produced while holding the coin in your wallet, you just need to claim it regularly).

Selling your coins on an exchange is of course faster than having it in your "cold wallet" (password, hash, ... can be printed out on paper and that is your "bank account" then).
If you plan to have it stored for many years, then this is the way to go - but attention: loose your hash + backup data (eg the 15-words-list to recreate your hash) then the money is lost forever. A "secure" exchange (not hacked, not backupped financially in case of hacks, ...) would be more safe when your home is burning or such stuff.


Next to "print it out" cold wallets there is also wallet software (like Jaxx) which can store a lot of this stuff for you (you of course can still print out the "credentials" so it works without that software too). Such software helps if you want to send some coins (or parts of it) to an exchange to sell it there (or trade with it). They also incorporate "coin exchanges" so you just say "I want to buy XRP with my BTC" and then define the amount, it lists the costs and what coin amount you will receive.


So I have some hundred thousand dogecoin in a "cold wallet" (bought over a year ago - at a value similar to the current ones, I sold 50% of them when value was >200% of my buy value and rebought same amount again after it dropped back) while my XRP are stored on bitstamp - to trade them here and then. On Binance I have some penny stock coins (OAX, FUEL, ...) - coins which have nice fluctuations of 10-30% within weeks. So you can loose a lot - or win a lot. Started there with 50$ and am now at >200$ (including some losses and some wins) - sounds much (relatively) but expressed in BTC I started with 0.014BTC and am now at 0.027 - 2 months ago this was down to 0.017 or so, but even in that "everything is bleeding" phase you could have some good trades). Having only some dollars/euros at the exchange for trading means the potential amount of taxes is ... pretty low. It can be seen as a little "trading game" there.



bye
Ron
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on January 12, 2020, 07:07:27 PM
thanks for the explanation about wallet, i will take a look ;D

about trading, i met a guy who apparently bought a few bitcoins (for only a few hundreds euros) before the high rise in 2017, then sold a few before the fall of 2017, he must have felt happy 8)
my goal is to own 1btc in case of another financial crisis... but for now it is too costly, i have only 0.01btc, just trying to understand how all this stuff work ! i am going to wait a little... (if only i had taken the risk in december 2012 !!!  :-\ )
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Kryzon on January 13, 2020, 08:23:52 PM
I don't quite understand the sale process. 

Say, you have an X amount of a coin, and the market value went up, you want to sell it. 

For me it'd make sense if it were... 
"I want to sell X amount of coin" 

But it's not that, it's... 
"I want to sell X amount of coin, for Y dollars" 

1) What happens if you set Y below the market value? 
2) What if you set Y as the current market value? 
3) What if you set it higher than the market value? 

How long does it usually take for your sale operation to finish (i.e. someone buys it)? 
Have you ever had one of your sales not finishing, as in, no one was interested in it?
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Derron on January 13, 2020, 08:53:55 PM
It depends on the kind of sale you do.
Market, Limit, Stopp-Limit, ...

Some act this way:
- buy what you could get for 100 Dollars (first for 10, then next 5 offered might be at 11, ... - you buy 1*10 + 5*11 + ... until you reach 100)
- buy at a given value ("limit"). You define "buy 10 for 10each" - it buys as soon as someone offers something for 10, it does so until it completes to have bought 10 for 10
- stopps ... you say "sell as soon as price falls below X" or "buy as soon as price climbs higher than X" and often you can add additional limits ("sell as soon as price falls below X% of value y" or "sell as soon as price falls below X after having raised above Y")
...

Stopp-Losses are there to avoid "total loss" but are dangerous on low-volume coins (in which a bigger transaction can result in 50% drops):
(https://i.imgur.com/cuB2EdK.png)
If you had a stopp loss here - saying "sell as soon as it drops below 0.50 - you would have lost over 20% (if you would buy it back some moments later)

Limit sell/buys are what you often use if you have "time": you do cascade buys.
buy 10 at 50
buy 10 at 45
buy 10 at 40

So if the price decreases to <50 it means you most probably bought the first 10. If it then lowers to 45 and then climbs to 55 ... you have bought the first 10 too expensive but buying the second ones leads to an average buy value of 47.5 (the buy-date has of course an impact on when you have your "hold for one year to save taxes" moment). This thing is called "cost averaging".


In the case of the image above I would better have had a limit buy with a very low value - but this requires you to have some "spare currency" (in this case "BTC"). So the more you can spend, the easier it is to participate in such "fat finger" things (someone maybe wanted to buy with "limit buy @ 0.000004" but misclicked and bought at "market" so it bought what it could for the given amount of money - leading to bots selling panically etc.). I would have been able to earn 50% wins within seconds but yeah, you never think such stuff happens (happens in the "uppersite" direction too - so have utopic limit sells at +40% of current prices!)

Same is done when selling. You see the price is climbing ... and somewhen will reach a maximum until falling again. If you set your sell price a bit too high you will not sell a single coin. So you sell in steps. If the price continues to climb you still are able to sell. If it falls then you at least were able to sell some of them (and are even able to buy them back if the drop is big enough to increase your coin holdings).

If you plan to "just sell my coins" then of course this cascade selling is not required. Sell it and never (!!) look back at the charts (to not feel unhappy "argh I should have waited to sell").


@ How long does it take
This depends on the activity of a coin. The more it is traded on a platform, the faster you might sell your stuff (at a "current price"). If your price differs from "current price" then it depends on which direction the price goes :)
Assume best buy offer is "pay 10 for 1 coin", best sell offer is "sell 1 for 12", then no trade will be made - no matter how many interest is there for the coin. So as long as nobody offers to sell for 10 - or buy for 12, nothing will happen. But as soon as you add this offer, it will "happen" (except you have a "only trade if I get all 10000 coins for that price" option - not all trading platforms allow this).


Then there is stuff like "anycoindirect(.eu)" they will buy your stuff (or sell) at their rates. No waiting time (but fees etc.). Also there are markets like "bitcoin.de" where people list their offers ("sell 4 for 20.000") and others can buy (so not 3, not 2 - but 4 for 20.000).



bye
Ron
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on January 14, 2020, 05:55:08 PM
after some more research, i see some problems with bitcoin and others crypto moneys... (as a replacement of the current money system) :

bitcoin :
the good :
-limited amount of money units
-safe transactions and accounts
-no need of a third party to transfer money between 2 persons need of a third party app, but they are usually open source with several developpers/contributors

the bad :
-the creator of the original code apparently owns 1 000 000 bitcoins !
-and others early buyers own in the 100 000s
-1 bitcoin is currently (14/01/2020) "valued" at 7800eur
this is clearly not democratic, unfair and not a safe reserve of value imo... but good if you like playing / trading

for others alt coins :
the bad :
-some creators have given themselves a lot of coins for free
-some creators keep the possibility to create more coins at will (not different than the current money system we all use, clearly not democratic and unfair and inflationist)

the more i learn, the more i think that things like foods, natural ressources, construction pieces, tools, machines, electronic components, lands are a more safe reserve of value...
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Derron on January 14, 2020, 06:03:50 PM
You are right about coins like XRP/Ripple - whose holders sell a fixed amount of coins each month - so "money for free".

But ... think if land you can buy. Who owns it? Why do they own it? Why aren't you able to claim your own part of the land? With coins it is the same: if you were there at the right time, you might have had the chance to buy and own land - or fresh crypto coins. But at the time where land was "claimable" (somehow) the possibilities with this piece of land were limited - "who would need it?". Same for the crypto coins - "who would need it?".
Believe in something (to have enough bravity to invest) and then a big portion of luck is required to make you rich (wealthy - or rich in knowledge or in something else you desire).


Gold and silver is also only expensive as others want it. It is not so much needed for electronics or other stuff. Jewelry can be made out of cheaper materials. So why is it expensive, just because more people want it and there is a limited offer (naturally or artificially).


bye
Ron
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on January 14, 2020, 06:36:44 PM
i agree with you that a thing has the value that some people give to it.

but ! gold and silver have been used as money (and as a stable store of value) for thousand of years ! (until recently in 1971  when some  american politicians decided to scam the world, and of course some european politicians followed the scam, and those who were opposed to it, were defamed and rewarded with war...)

also silver 9999 can be used to make colloidal silver, a great and safe anti microbes (if used properly)

electronic components used in low tech circuits like arduino are, imo, a good reserve of value, because they are and will be useful to make all kinds of useful devices with real world applications, that you can assemble, disassemble, modify, repair, reuse.

the idea behind bitcoin is really good, a limited amount of money units, more safety, more freedom, more transparency, but the implementation is unfair and greedy, imo.

a more fair money system would be similar to bitcoin but :
each person is born with 1 coin (dividible)
each person can not accumulate 1000 times more than a newborn (so 1000 coins max) (or something like that, 1000 is arbitrary, it could be more, i don't know, you get the idea)
when a person dies, his money disappears.
so those who are more intelligent / smart /  strong / agile / fast / endurant / motivated / ingenious / courageous / etc..., could earn more, but with a limit...

and i say that with a pro liberal / anti welfare mindset, so you can see how unfair the current money system is !

(btw i can buy several btc if i decide to, but i don't think it is a safe store of value or what will replace the current money system...)
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Derron on January 14, 2020, 07:39:49 PM
so those who are more intelligent / smart /  strong / agile / fast / endurant / motivated / ingenious / courageous / etc..., could earn more, but with a limit...

There is a simple answer and question in the same moment: why should they if there is a limit?

If you cannot reach for the stars, then you most probably won't even try.


Discussing this will sooner or later lead into a politics and "political system" discussion (as the "greed" is based on the political system and history). It is
a) derailing this thread
b) something I think Qube was not in favor to see (if I remember correctly).

So if you want to discuss about "crypto currencies vs old school invests" (or so) then open a new thread and we could write there - with the option to cross the borders to political discussions or "system" discussions.


bye
Ron
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on January 14, 2020, 07:51:07 PM
of course, we can stick to the technical aspects of crypto currencies and buying/selling, but the initial goal of bitcoin was also political in a way (more safety, more transparency, more freedom, decentralized). and the way the coins are distributed between the creators and the first buyers are problematic if the goal is to have a more fair money system...

can you criticize owners of big international banks if you do the same with cryptos ?

recently i learned about how coins were duplicated for bcc / bcg / btc, and it is insane ! (money from nothing indeed)
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Derron on January 14, 2020, 09:37:49 PM
If you are into trading (here and there) than this coin forges are good chances - as you also gain something out of nothing. Same for "air drops".

For this it is important to remember: have your coins on a trading platform often means you will not receive these free coins - some platforms allow claiming them, but others don't. Yet I think this "ICO"-season was 2018 and for now we are still consolidating.


bye
Ron
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Kryzon on January 16, 2020, 03:30:00 AM
It depends on the kind of sale you do.
Market, Limit, Stopp-Limit, ...

Some act this way: 
(...)
Thank you for all the information Derron, it's the first time I'm reading about this. Where did you learn all this?

Someone said to me that cryptocurrencies (BTC especially) are best used for what they are, currencies, money for you to buy things with. 
Is it worth it to play the speculation game, trying to make money from them?
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Derron on January 16, 2020, 06:17:42 AM
Learning by doing / seeing stuff I do not know what they mean.


Speculation is good...as long as you are assuming the right future development ;-).
Long term holding/invest the same.


Bye
Ron
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: fairgood on January 19, 2020, 07:42:42 PM
The ledger Nano is a good secure hardware wallet for crypto
https://shop.ledger.com/products/ledger-nano-s
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPpZxOjvU10
You just need to check it supports the coin you want to store
Nano X is a little more expensive but has more storage

All in for #VET VeChain here myself :)

Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Matty on January 21, 2020, 07:22:21 AM
High risk investment = good odds you will lose your investment.
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Derron on January 21, 2020, 08:28:36 AM
If you lost your investment, then someone else won it. Who says you cannot be the one who wins the investment of someone else?


bye
Ron
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on January 24, 2020, 11:23:21 AM
after some research, i bet for bitcoin and bitcoin cash, my reasoning is this :
these cryptos are far from ideal and fair, but bitcoin is the most popular name in the normal (not IT / not finance ) world, and like on others topics, most people repeat and follow without caring of knowing the truth / details.

so i think, they have the most potential of becoming known and invested in.

some others crypto moneys can be better / more useful, but if they never become popular, what the point ?
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on May 14, 2020, 08:51:29 PM
after some more research and experiments :

Quote
->can you backup your "wallet"/account offline, regularly, but still have it on an exchange platform (i use coinbase), to buy/sell ?
i suppose that a backup must be done after each transaction to be considered as valid ?
no need to backup the transactions of a wallet, the ledger (comptability, debit / credit, ins / outs, entrys / exits) of a crypto is decentralized...

you have to understand the difference between an exchange account (on an exchange platform) and a wallet or address :

an exchange account allows you to trade fiat currencies (EUR, USD, GBP, CHF) and crypto currencies (BTC, BCH, ...)

a wallet is a software/app which allows to receive/send cryptos securely (associated to an address)

an address is where you receive/send the cryptos (see bitaddress.org to generate one)

to receive money on your address you don't need any privatekey, but to send money from your address you need a privatekey. you can share your address to anyone, but you must keep your privatekey secret.



Quote
->how do you manage to get back the money (in USD/EUR) without being taxed ? (maybe keep it on a paypal account ? or buy a "temporary money card" ? or open an online bank account which is tolerant regarding cryptos transfers ?)
several ways :
->convert the crypto currency (BTC, BCH) to fiat currency (EUR, USD, GBP, CHF) and keep it on the exchange account.
now apparently you can pay with a visa card with some exchange accounts (coinbase, wirex)
->convert the crypto currency (BTC, BCH) to fiat currency (EUR, USD, GBP, CHF) and keep it on your paypal account.
->pay with the crypto currency (BTC, BCH) in webshops/shops that support it.

great  8)
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on August 08, 2020, 02:48:03 PM
hi !  ;D

for those who care about that : just to say that after 6 months of research, experimenting, and following the news in this industry, i am still for BTC and BCH, but i think that BTC will have problems in the future because of high transaction fees and slow transactions, so this means that BCH has more potential (if devs don't screw up for unimportant things).
( i bet for BTC a 4x potential, and for BCH a 145x potential, but don't listen to me, i am a bit insane ahah :)) )

anyway, whatever you choose to do, good luck !
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Matty on August 09, 2020, 07:58:30 AM

See if I've got this right.
Bitcoins:

A computer burns through electricity to power its cpu sufficiently to cause a number in a database to increment - and this is worth real dollars and cents?

Sounds like whoever assigns value to this lives in lala land.
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Derron on August 09, 2020, 08:59:49 AM
the value of something is based on what others pay for it.

Crypto coins do not just burn electricity ... they allow the "blockchain" - a "chain of trust". To keep it alive computer must process stuff. They must find numbers etc.
So without "burned energy" it wont work. And the faster you want stuff, the more must be done. So depending on how "fast" you want something, the more expensive it will become.
And as it becomes harder and harder to compute these numbers ... the "price" for numbers will raise.
But ... if nobody cared for it - and nobody used it, the algorithms would become easier and numbers easier to calculate - less energy consumed (but also less "numbers generated").


Yet it stays: it is worth what others are willed to pay for it. Offer - Demand.


Why are paintings worth millions of dollars? Were they painted with fairy diamond dust and gold sprinkles?
People pay for something they want to have - they also pay for stuff when they estimate a raise of the value in the future.
They also pay for stuff (especially art - and cryptos) to avoid their money loosing value (money inflation). So this is why cryptos are pretty popular in poor countries (for the ones having the money there...).
Helps also to circumvent embargos and other stuff ... or to help wash your mafia money ... or if you are sanctioned by another country (eg Russian politicians vs US etc).

There are legal and illegal reasons for crypto coins (for now) being a nice chance to do something with your money.

And this defines a use case for these coins ... and therefore a reason to burn energy.


Ideally people would use an less energy hungry approach ... but this makes it less interesting for the "mining companies" as everybody could do it and then these "coins" are almost free to create, people would have calculated "all" coins right now ... this leads eg to the availability of all potential coins (fitting in the mathematical structure) right on start (or a bit later). Coins would be distributed by a few people/companies ...  dunno if this would work well too (just check out "Ripple / XRP").


I would happily enjoy a less hungry approach too ... only so much energy, that excess energy (think of wind energy in China ... much was unused, so the energy of Chinese crypto miners was essentially also eating this "excess" - but when writing about the energy burned by cryptos, you do not subtract this "free" energy).
Maybe times will change somewhen and people try to run a new horse - an less energy hungry crypto coin / block chain idea.

bye
Ron
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Matty on August 09, 2020, 04:14:04 PM
Sorry...you missed my point:

Someone is assigning real monetary value to a few bits and bytes in a database that are not tied to anything tangible in the real world?

Using your art analogy why not then simply pay artists for imagining artworks without painting anything-the arywork is as real and tangible as a bitcoin then...
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Derron on August 09, 2020, 05:15:27 PM
Stock prices are also not really bound to tangible assets ... it depends on "future estimations".


bye
Ron
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Qube on August 09, 2020, 06:02:12 PM
Cryptocurrency... What a minefield ;D :P

That’s as good as they get folks, tune in next week for more ::)
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on August 09, 2020, 07:12:03 PM
there is no physical / natural value in bitcoin units or the protocol, the value exists because some humans decide to use it to store value or exchange value (send / receive units), the strengths of bitcoin are the transparency of the protocol (open source and people vote with their money to support a protocol / fork more than another), the decentralisation of transactions management / accounts / compatibility, the limit amount of units, the resistance to censorship and stealing (taxes) of  governments. If you don't have a good understanding of what truly is money / currency and the monetary system, you can't understand. do some research on youtube about what is money / currency...
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Krischan on August 11, 2020, 12:24:25 PM
IMHO Bitcoin is only the "anchor" for the coming payment systems, like a form of digital gold. I'm currently holding BTC, ETH and some XRP, MIOTA and BCH (while BCH is very disappointing). But there are more interesting payment systems coming which are not being "mined" but dependent to the big CC's like BTC or ETH.

Consider this from the point of view of an investor:

1) Economy outlook
Because of Corona and low interest rates, many "zombie" companies will not survive the next years. Facing a bear market, investors need a safe harbour or alternatives. Real estate is a risky alternative because the already high prices must also be paid by somebody. If less and less can afford one or don't get a loan, what will happen to the prices? And interest rates must be raised again one day.

2) Precious Metals
The total amount of physical Gold *ever* mined since the beginning of mankind is about 180.000 tons whichs makes a cube of 20x20x20 meters only, try to imagine this in front of you (ScaleEntity cube,20,20,20)  8). Every year only 2000 tons are added, but it is getting more and more difficult (expensive) to mine it. Most of this mined gold is stored by countries and jewellery in India, only a small part of it is available for you and me, for example in gold coins. Much more virtual gold is being traded but if only a small percentage of investors suddenly demands their investment physical, the whole market and the price of Gold will explode or even split, so silver will do (but the market there is much smaller). Precious metals could become "too expensive" for investors and owning/getting them physical is more difficult/expensive than owning CC. And if you think the current prices of gold and silver are too high, wait for the future...

3) Currency theory
Currency is only worth something as long as all people agree that it is worth something. So we could also pay with shells or pebbles as long as everyone believes that shells or pebbles are worth something. For stability, however, a currency must be a scarce good. Current currencies are created "out of nothing", and in history this *always* ended in a hyperinflation, see Germany 1923, Zimbabwe 2009, Venezuela 2016-today etc. Bitcoin is limited to 21 million units total, of which 18.5 million have already been mined and it becomes more and more difficult (expensive) to mine more. Even central banks are considering bringing out their own Crypto Currencies as an alternative to the current currency system.

Take a look at ADA (Cardano), XTZ (Tezos), TRX (Tron) and XLM (Stellar) which are modern payment systems based on CC, and some of them are still low on price which means you can get a lot of units for a low price compared to Bitcoin. I don't think we will pay with Bitcoin as we're not paying with gold/silver coins in the supermarket, too.

IMHO, digital payment systems backed by scarce CC are the future, the question is only: which one(s).
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on August 16, 2020, 07:44:58 AM
@Krischan>>
why do you say that bch is disapointing ?
since there is enough decentralisation (less than btc, ok, but if enough companies in different countries use it and run their own node it would be enough) and transaction fee/time are good (low) for bch (whereas transaction fee/time are too high for btc and will most likely make it unusable for most people...)

about gold / silver >> these have proven to be good store of value in the past, but i see 3 problems :
how can you be sure of the purity ?
how can you store them and transport them safely ?
how to do transaction at a distance (buy/sell/trade on the internet)
what if your government decide to seize them or to forbid them ?

crypto coins are superior in these aspects...
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Krischan on August 16, 2020, 02:33:39 PM
I wasn't precise enough on BCH: I mean that MY investment in BCH is disappointing yet, but I'm still holding all of it - let's see. Well, many good questions about AU/AG, you can find all the answers in the internet and some depend on your countries laws, but I try to answer them:

To be sure of the purity: buy only from reputable, certified dealers - they don't want to lose their reputation which is crucial and buy only 1oz bullion coins like the Krugerrand, Maple Leaf, Kookaburra which are harder to fake. For transportation, well if you're not a millionaire: pants pocket, wallet, insured package, value transport service, private army - depends on how much you have to transport. And for storing there are a lot of possibilities too: you can choose a classic bank safe deposit box, store them in a mountain storage depot in Switzerland, you can bury them or wall them in. Depends on how safe/expensive the storage should be and how paranoid you are. But the best is to have direct access yourself, because then you are not dependent on others.

I don't think that the government will repeat the mistakes the Roosevelt government did in the 1930s (possession of gold was prohibited back then which didn't work very well) so this is a real threat but speculative. If you're paranoid try to buy it physical and anonymously for cash only and then you're the only one who knows that you own it. And if they forbid it there will always be a second "market" ;D But in such a situation, silver is more usable as it is an industrial metal with a much smaller value and can be traded for goods, like in the medieval ages :-D

An advantage of physical AU/AU over virtual gold and CC here in Germany is that 100% of the earnings are tax free if you hold it physical for at least 12 months. On CC earnings you must pay here 25% tax and from the 75% rest additional 5,5% "solidarity tax" and they are planning to tax virtual gold the next year like other earnings.

One important thing to favour physical over virtual AU: in case of a power failure, everything is still there in contrast to virtual/CC. And it has worked perfectly for over 5,000 years. But to be prepared for all scenarios, you should own physical, virtual and CC.
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on August 18, 2020, 01:45:21 PM
thanks for the clarifications.
i agree on almost everything.

another smart investment (instead of keeping too much fiat cash), imo, are materials / items / tools / devices which can last long and which are useful in real life. things that i would buy in the future for example... or that i could resell on ebay...
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: GfK on August 19, 2020, 12:43:20 PM
Any of you lot want to buy some magic beans?
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on August 20, 2020, 03:18:29 PM
in what sense the fiat currency (usd, eur, gbp, aud, cad) that you use, has more value than btc or bch, if a central bank can create a lot more (several trillions in 2020) and distribute it to only a selected few individuals / companies ? (=not to you, not to me)
this is the best way to lose buying power and to have your savings lose value

if you find this normal and fair (or democratic, lol) well you are a lost case...
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Krischan on August 20, 2020, 07:22:17 PM
Always remember that ALL fiat currencies do not have intrinsic value. What they are doing right now is repeating the hyperinflation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Papiermark) of 1923 in Germany and 2009 in Zimbabwe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollar). This is a mathematical fact no politics can change when they once go this way. It only still works because the US of A currently have the worldwide fiat currency and as long as China doesn't say "hey, the Dollar is only a huge pile of toilet paper" it is "worth" something. In fact, the dollar today is as much worth as the hyperinflated German Papermark of 1923 and so the Euro is.

Take a look at the attached note (I'm owning one of them to always remind me). They've never used this in Zimbabwe because their currency systems crashed before they could be used but they exist. As a warning that this still happens in our time.

And don't take a look at the price of gold. Think of gold as a constant line at 100% and turn the price of gold in fiat currencies upside down below (see second attachment). All currencies lose against gold. Because it is scarce.

The magic beans are the Dollars and Euros in our pockets, the bits and bytes in our bank accounts and the Tesla or Apple shares. That's why Gold and even Bitcoin are getting more important. If you're an optimist, buy gold or CC. If you're an pessimist, buy lead (bullets).
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on August 22, 2020, 06:29:36 PM
not sure about the real amount of extracted gold in the world (taking into account  the difference of purity of some coins / bars)
and not sure if there are some hidden undisclosed stacks somewhere.
so not sure about the stability of the max number of units compared to bitcoin, but since it has already been used as money, yes i understand why some people consider it as a reserve of value...
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on October 25, 2020, 12:54:08 PM
Paypal is going to support to sell, buy, pay with crypto money (BTC, BCH, ETH, LTC)

youtube.com/watch?v=GZMr9BH0vCs

youtube.com/watch?v=uWrBXjWwUAk

youtube.com/watch?v=t9LCFUzDGBk

youtube.com/watch?v=ZaVWziwHHU4
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Kryzon on December 01, 2020, 01:13:40 PM
Something I'm trying to understand is, when you buy BTC, how do you possess it? Is it a hash (like a password)?

There are some local currency exchanges in my country that let you make a deposit in fiat currency to get a crypto (or fraction of it), but how does it exist?
I know that they say "if you don't own the keys, you don't own the coins", or in other words, you shouldn't have to ask permission (log in, password etc.) to access your cryptocurrency.
I also heard that you can have a hardware-wallet or paper-wallet, having whatever your BTC is.

I imagine that if you own 'partial' BTC (say, something less than a unit of BTC) then you don't actually own the coin, you just share it with the exchange you have the account on, and are entitled to a fraction of that unit. It's only when you own a whole unit that you can print the password to it or something like that, is that correct?
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on December 01, 2020, 03:43:37 PM
Quote
how do you possess it? Is it a hash (like a password)?
as i understand it : bitcoin is a protocol and also a coin and also a ledger (history of transactions) and also a network of nodes (servers) spread in different countires / regions of the world.

there are public addresses and private keys (that you can generate)

an address is like a bank account number, a private key is like a password / pin code

to receive btc you only need an address (or corresponding QR code) that you give to somebody
but to send btc you need a private key

to generate addresses / private keys you can use :
->an address / private key generator (to have a "paper wallet")
->a wallet that generates and manages the addresses / keys for you, and to recover the last used address / key you can use some backup words
->a wallet that generates one never changing address / key

to receive coins :
you only need to give your public address (or corresponding QR code)

to send coins :
you need your address and private key, this is managed by a software wallet (on android, ios, windows, mac) or by a hardware wallet (too complicated and not safer imo)


Quote
that let you make a deposit in fiat currency to get a crypto (or fraction of it), but how does it exist?
an exchange is like a bank, it has a promise to give you the fiat / crypto that they store on your account, as long as they don't fail or disappear  ;)
so they are useful to convert fiat to crypto or crypto to fiat, but not safe to store a lot of money / coins on it.

there are 2 others ways to buy btc without using an exchange :
->buying btc in a crypto ATM
->trading cash to btc with somebody who already owns btc


Quote
"if you don't own the keys, you don't own the coins"
let's say that some exchanges or financial companies are more risky (to fail and disappear) than others, so if you don't know the address / private key where your coins are stored, there is a risk that you won't be able to access them.
but there are some "reliable" exchanges and financial companies which provide some good services / deals, so your choice...


Quote
you can have a hardware-wallet or paper-wallet, having whatever your BTC is.
the btc is never on the wallet, wether it is paper / software / harware, the btc is stored on the address on the btc ledger, on the nodes of the network.
a wallet is a tool to receive/send coins from/to others addresses... (except the paper wallet which is just to store your address / key)


what i use :
for bitcoin core (btc) :
to generate a btc address / key : bitaddress.org (i generate my addresses / keys offline on a "clean computer" without malwares)
a wallet to manage one (or several) never changing btc address / key : electrum wallet (android) (to store coins)
a wallet which automatically manages always changing btc addresses / keys : bitcoin core wallet (from "bitcoin.org developpers") (to send / receive often, more easy to use)

for bitcoin cash (bch) :
to generate a bch address / key : cashaddress.org (i generate my addresses / keys offline on a "clean computer" without malwares)
a wallet to manage one (or several) never changing bch address / key : electron cash wallet (android) (to store coins)
a wallet which automatically manages always changing bch addresses / keys : bitcoin cash wallet (android) (from "bitcoin.com developpers") (android) (to send / receive often, more easy to use)


the best way to start is to create an account on an exchange, buy a little sum of coins (minimum would be 0.001btc for bitcoin core because btc transaction fees can be as high as 0.0009btc, and minimum would be 0.00001bch for bitcoin cash because bch transaction fees can be as high as 0.000009bch)

then generate a paper wallet (address / private key) and try to send a little sum from the exchange to the address, then use a software wallet to send a little sum from your address to the exchange.

note that bitcoin core (btc) and bitcoin cash (bch) are 2 differents protocols, coins, ledgers, networks, so don't try to send btc to a bch address or to send bch to a btc address. ok ? ::)
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Kryzon on December 03, 2020, 11:31:10 PM
Thanks Remid! I'm also re-reading this entire thread, a lot of useful info in here.
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on December 22, 2020, 08:19:35 PM
since there was a hard fork for bitcoin cash (BCH) in november 2020, i am trying to understand if the old coin / addresses / ledger (BCH) is compatible with the new dominant coin / addresses / ledger (BCHN). :-\

answer : bitcoin cash (BCH) coin, addresses / ledger are the same than before.
BCHN is the name of the new team working on the BCH protocol / coin / ledger.
the old BCH addresses / keys still work like before. bitcoin cash wallet (from "bitcoin.com developpers") and electron cash wallet still work like before.

great  :)


Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Matty on January 14, 2021, 12:55:59 AM
I don't think I'll ever understand what the difference is between a government printing more money and a cryptocurrency being incremented in a database as a result of rather meaningless electrical power expenditure.
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Matty on January 14, 2021, 12:58:39 AM
https://youtu.be/77xaqFyFET0
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on January 14, 2021, 09:14:56 AM
Quote
I don't think I'll ever understand what the difference is between a government printing more money and a cryptocurrency being incremented in a database as a result of rather meaningless electrical power expenditure.

ok let me try :
until recently (bitcoin was accessible after 2009), if you had some savings, you could either let it in your bank account, or buy some stocks, or buy some gold,, or buy some real estate (if you have a lot of money)

if you let your money in a bank, since the governments / central banks are always creating more magic money (from nothing) and distibute this money arbitrarily (=to their friends and to their electors), if you don't have some of this money distributed to you, you are loosing buying power. (because the money will end up in the real economy, especially in real estate, and provoke a rise in prices / rents).
also if you participate in activities / groups that the governments don't like, they can freeze your bank account and seize your money... and if a bank fails, you loose your money...

stocks have an arbitrary value, the market is highly speculative, and some of the companies are overevaluated. and there is the problem of zombie companies (companies which can function only because the government is helping them with subsidies)

gold has an arbitray value (the price does not reflect the demand of the material for technical reasons but more because of speculation), and there is the problem of being sure of the purity of gold / not counterfeit gold, and the problem of storing it safely, the problem of transporting it safely, (not being stealed by burglars or seized by the governments / douanes), the problem of buying / selling / paying in small amounts.

bitcoin answer all these needs, the number of coins is limited (so its price will rise to compensate the magic money, similar to gold), the ledger (accounts and history of transactions) is decentralised and can't be stopped or blocked by governments, anybody can create an account, anybody can buy / sell coins, anybody can send / receive coins worldwide (with a smartphone + a "wallet" app), anybody can participate in the "mining" (creation) of new coins or in the verification / storing of transactions. the governements can't seize your money to pay the debt created by their insanity with helps / subsidies.

that's my understanding...
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Matty on January 14, 2021, 11:07:35 PM
All well and good but where is its actual worth?

A number in a database has effectively no physical tangible aspect. 

I want to buy an orange or a banana.  How many digits in my database do you want for it - I used up a lot of electrical power to generate these numbers?  So I'll transfer these bytes of data to your account - that have no tangible equivalent and you'll give me an orange?  Oh, look in the last hour the value has gone up by 10%, so can I also now get some grapes as well?  Sorry sir, the value has just plummeted 50% - I can no longer sell you the orange or the grapes.

Excuse me sir, I'd like to refund this vacuum cleaner, it's stopped working but can we wait five minutes the value will be 20% higher then.
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Derron on January 14, 2021, 11:23:25 PM
you think in "value" ... in the sense of "a bitcoin is worth x dollars".

But think of "a bitcoin is worth x apples".

Or do you buy your orange and say... "no no, I cannot buy the orange anymore, exchange curse from AUD to EUR just decreased by 5%".

As long as you always substitute "X bitcoins" with "equals to X AUD" you are falling into the old habbit.


Regarding values:
A bank account: where is your money there? Do you have a kilogram of "money" at home? would it be less worth if it was just a pound (not a US pound ... talking about 500g, 0.5 kilograms) ?
There is a old saying: Things are worth what others are willed to pay for.

If people buy your 1 AUD for 10 Euro, then this is their individual exchange rate (maybe they want only 1 AUD - and this NOW, so they pay more than "usual").
If people want your 0.01 bitcoin for 1 dollar and you sell it for this price then this is your exchange rate.

What is the price of information ? Think of bounties for criminals ... who defines this value? What if they offer you 1 million USD .. you help, they arrest - and suddenly the exchange course "USD - AUD" collapses and your 1 million USD is only worth 1 AUD. Happy? your can no longer buy a car with your 1 million USD.


Crypto currencies try to be some kind of "money without government" so it cannot be "shallowed" that easily - yet their markets are so small that some players can easily manipulate the market. But even bigger markets (just think about the "virtual" value of Apple, ABC, Tesla...). Tesla eg has a bigger value according to the dow jones - than other car vendors. They could "easily" buy Volkswagen or other "big players". The value is there because people find other people buying their virtual papers. There is no tangible asset of the value these companies have. Not to talk about how "tangible" IPs are.


You can find a lot of videos and articles about the theory of money - with advantages and disadvantages.


bye
Ron
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Matty on January 15, 2021, 01:07:31 AM
I suppose it comes down to Marxism,  there are those who own the means of production, and those who are the means of production - and those with power like to keep their group static in composition.
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on January 15, 2021, 08:09:22 AM
Quote
Crypto currencies try to be some kind of "money without government" so it cannot be "shallowed" that easily
only a few are truly decentralised in the creation of the protocol / coins / management of transactions...
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on January 15, 2021, 08:21:43 AM
@Matty>>the issue of volatility is because bitcoin is still in price discovery, compare the buying power of 1usd 50 years ago and now, and you will realise that your example to use a fiat currency to buy things without price fluctuations does not stand.
also the prices appear to be stable because of governments regulations and taxes and helps / subsidies...

also take a look at this :
(https://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2017/11/1/3948-1509552555842769.jpg)

(https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/13672.jpeg)

of course bitcoin "value" is unsure at the moment, and less stable than fiat, but be patient, it is still the begining...
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Matty on January 15, 2021, 08:27:04 AM
I wonder if we would still be having this conversation if bitcoin was still worth less than 1 usd not thousands of usd?
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: Derron on January 15, 2021, 09:06:51 AM
if a bitcoin equaled 1 usd -- then it would still be a very good reason for people in South America (and maybe Africa) to buy it. Their currencies are falling and falling (or did at least) without a chance to do something against it. Some regimes of course try to make it "difficult" to converse their currencies into USD, EUR ...

Also the "value" of a single unit of something is not what it is created for. you must not think of "1.50 bitcoin" for a bottle of beer. It might also be "0,00000009 BTC" (which equals to 9 so called "Satoshi" - the smallest unit BTC can have - a millionth of a BTC). With a rate of 38000$/BTC a single satoshi equals to around 0.0003847729 $. Means you need 27 Satoshi to be currently valued a single US Dollar cent (0,01$).

Means - you do not have to own 1 BTC or 2 ... you can also have just 0.05 (btw I bought 0.015 BTC last spring ... bought and sold some crypto currency and now it is valued 0.06 BTC --- maybe this "gambling" is what makes you think BTC is just there for this purpose and not real world problems).

The minimum BTC value (1 Satoshi) is something to think about when estimating potential "price ranges" (price development) when BTC could stabilize. There is no sense to have 1 Satoshi (a millionth of a BTC - just to repeat that) to be worth more 1 bottle of beer. What would be the price of a bun then? Would there be something like a "minimum price" with a bottle of beer being the same price than a single sold unit of bubble gum?

People of course thought about solutions already - I am sure.



Other crypto currencies (and the block chain) are of course used to allow for fast international money transfers - without the huge fees and delay of the banking system. Banking systems now need to adopt - and swooosh they offer same day and instant transfers. Their "services" become less and less "value rich" with the option to use alternatives.

And yes, there might be a kind of margin trading: people send something and the other one who receives it can sell it for a different exchange rate. This is either because his exchange offers it - or because of the "delay" between sending and receiving.
But - this is the same all the banking companies do too! They "automatically" trade with fiat currency / conversion rates.

But with fast transactions you could minimize the differences - user 1 sends and some milliseconds later user 2 could convert back into their currency. Of course the "plan" is to not have "convert back" stuff at all. People should stay in this very crypto currency economy -- like a kind of "one world currency".


Yet - to repeat myself again - crypto currency is so small yet, that governments just need to drop some bad news and the "value" of a currency drops. Yes, I know ... ripple (XRP) is a bad example as it is a company driven coin (company holds all coins and sells them to peope ... and burns/destroys them when buying them back in fixed time intervals). But this XRP coin was decided to be _possibly_ some kind of Stock/Share system by the US government. Some bigger and smaller coin exchanges decided to stop ability to trade it (as then the coin exchange needs to have some specific licences to trade shares)... the price of XRP dropped hugely (50%+). More and more people now calmed down - as they all only stopped trading for US people. And US <> world. But it has shown how huge the impact of governments can still be to crypto coins. They just say "you have to do with 'inofficial' cryptos? your company is no longer legal" and bam... whole system crashes.
But the more bigger companies invest in the system (paypal -> BTC) the more lobbyists will try to avoid stuff. People might get used to cryptos ... it just needs some kind of laws to have shallow "boundaries" in which the stuff could evolve. People fighted against so many things in the past - yet the better system had chances to win (womens right to vote, people equality, ...). If BTC and Co have advantages - their advantages will be used.

But stuff like "blockchain" is in use for many many years now - I talked to a developer some months ago. He works for the board of weights and measures and explained me that some scales do blockchain for a long while now already. So if on a fruit market someone weights your strawberries the value is stored - interchained with the previous one. If they now cheat, the previous and current do no longer "interchain" correctly. If they now fake the previous - the one before the previous does no longer fit ... and so on.
Same can be required for invoice systems in supermarkets etc.



bye
Ron
Title: Re: Crypto Currencies?
Post by: RemiD on January 15, 2021, 10:29:50 AM
bitcoin core (btc) is now positionned as "digital gold" (decentralized) so more for speculation / savings

if you are interested in a similar coin but for fast transactions at low cost (for frequent transactions and commerce), take a look at bitcoin cash (bch) which is positionned as "digital cash" (decentralized)

example of wallet use :
https://youtu.be/nuCxTfKbf80

shops which accept bch worldwide :
http://map.bitcoin.com

you may better understand the usefulness of decentralized digital gold and decentralized digital cash, when Central Banks Digital Currencies will be forced to replace physical cash (coins and paper, which currently allow people to keep some privacy and freedom in exchange and commerce)...
or when the fiat currencies continue to loose a lot of buying power and the decentralized digital cash keep the buying power... (because governements / central banks continue to create more magic money)

the real question is :
which governements will forbid these alternative moneys, and how far these governments will be ready to go (against their citizens) to forbid their use...
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