SyntaxBomb - Indie Coders

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bmcalex on September 03, 2017, 04:41:41 PM

Title: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: bmcalex on September 03, 2017, 04:41:41 PM
Hello to all,

Firstly, I have an acceptable experience in programming (used to use VB6 for apps development and C++ using CodeBlocks for small utilities).

I played a bit with both products and honestly I found that :

AGK documentations is better than Monkey, it even has video tutorials and pdf book.

AGK IDE is better than Ted2Go, it reminds me of CodeBlocks IDE.

Though I am not sure which is better regarding performance, support and bug fixes, ease of deployment….etc

Why should I pick one over the other?

I do appreciate your opinions.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Qube on September 03, 2017, 05:17:09 PM
I've moved the topic to general discussion and removed the duplicate from the Monkey forums to keep things tidy and clean :)
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Pingus on September 03, 2017, 05:33:35 PM
From my very limited experience with Monkey, setting things up to compile and send the app to the device is a pain and requires to learn how to devellop with Android tools, while it works like a breeze with AGK (click>run>deploy). Also Monkey may be very slow to compile/parse if you have a big project. AGK is much easier to use for Android and has a huge community. But keep in mind that AGK is a interpreted language (unless you use it in C++) so it depends the kind of app you want to do with it.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Xaron on September 03, 2017, 05:58:03 PM
Monkey is dead but lives on in Cerberus.

Compiling and deployment to Android is basically one click stuff as well but you have to install Android Studio for that.

Performance wise Monkey runs probably circles around AGK which is interpreted in Tier 1. You can use C++ with AGK which is nice and in that case it's most likely on par.

When it comes to 3d, I'd say AGK is better. There are two 3d solutions for Monkey, Minib3d which is like BB3D and Vortex which uses some simple to use API as well.

Ted2Go is not a IDE it's ... just a better notepad. Actually now I get that you probably don't mean Monkey but Monkey 2, right? Well...

So about Monkey 2, my take on it:
Awesome language with almost non existing documentation, unusable IDE. One man show. Pretty performant but quite some compiling times.

For me the non existing documentation and the (for me) absolutely unusable IDE (actually IDE is a huge exagerration) makes a decision easy. Go with AGK. There is a team behind which work hard on fixes. Plus, and now comes the probably most important point: THEY DO LISTEN TO THE COMMUNITY and don't ban members like me who just questioned something.  :P
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: bmcalex on September 03, 2017, 07:04:41 PM
I've moved the topic to general discussion and removed the duplicate from the Monkey forums to keep things tidy and clean :)

Sorry for that Qube, and thanks for taking the time to tidy things up :)
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: bmcalex on September 03, 2017, 07:06:58 PM
From my very limited experience with Monkey, setting things up to compile and send the app to the device is a pain and requires to learn how to devellop with Android tools, while it works like a breeze with AGK (click>run>deploy). Also Monkey may be very slow to compile/parse if you have a big project. AGK is much easier to use for Android and has a huge community. But keep in mind that AGK is a interpreted language (unless you use it in C++) so it depends the kind of app you want to do with it.

Thanks Pingus for your reply and to my surprise I did not know AGK is interpreted!
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: bmcalex on September 03, 2017, 07:19:40 PM
Monkey is dead but lives on in Cerberus.
I know that, actually I had to mention Cerberus as I meant AGK vs Cerberus vs Monkey 2!

Quote
When it comes to 3d, I'd say AGK is better. There are two 3d solutions for Monkey, Minib3d which is like BB3D and Vortex which uses some simple to use API as well.
I am not interested in 3D.

Quote
Ted2Go is not a IDE it's ... just a better notepad. Actually now I get that you probably don't mean Monkey but Monkey 2, right? Well...
You are right, I meant Monkey 2!!

Quote
So about Monkey 2, my take on it:
Awesome language with almost non existing documentation, unusable IDE. One man show. Pretty performant but quite some compiling times.

For me the non existing documentation and the (for me) absolutely unusable IDE (actually IDE is a huge exagerration) makes a decision easy. Go with AGK. There is a team behind which work hard on fixes. Plus, and now comes the probably most important point: THEY DO LISTEN TO THE COMMUNITY and don't ban members like me who just questioned something.  :P
I second your suggestions if it was not interpreted :(
I think I will choose Cerberus then, I downloaded it but I have some issues!!
I guess I better post them at Cerberus forums!

Thanks Xaron
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Xaron on September 03, 2017, 07:44:47 PM
Well interpreted doesn't mean it's slow. That's not the case. Of course it's slower than compiled but I think it's still fast enough for most cases.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Xaron on September 03, 2017, 08:45:29 PM
And never forget: Mark closed down everything without even blinking. He's awesome in creating new languages, but sucks in Marketing and communication. I have no doubts there will be M3 at some point.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Steve Elliott on September 03, 2017, 10:46:19 PM
Quote
I am not interested in 3D.

Well interpreted doesn't mean it's slow. That's not the case. Of course it's slower than compiled but I think it's still fast enough for most cases.

And never forget: Mark closed down everything without even blinking.

If interpreted 2D games using STOS/AMOS BASIC on the 16 bit computers were fast enough, on today's 64-bit processors and powerful graphics processors it certainly is!

Mark is unreliable - give AGK a go.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Naughty Alien on September 04, 2017, 01:16:48 AM
...as Yasha pointed loooong ago in bb forums...'Mark doesnt respond to a  men nor to a Gods'..
--you want piece of advice?? Stay away from BRL .. as for AGK, its there, it works and its fast enough..plenty of games made with it so i think that should be a testimony for its use..and community there is very much a live and friendly..
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: MikeHart on September 04, 2017, 06:00:04 AM
If I had to choose between Monkey 2 and AGK, i would ALWAYS choose AGK. It works, gets frequently updated, has a good community and good documentation. That choice is a nobrainer.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Pakz on September 04, 2017, 04:30:26 PM
I have been looking at app game kit but the documentation is really bad also. (not even b3d quality(every command an example)) I am still looking around since it is still on sale but it looks like it is not worth it.
Mark mentioned the monkey2 docs will improve in the coming months so I wil wait for that.

Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Naughty Alien on September 04, 2017, 04:55:28 PM
Quote
Mark mentioned the monkey2 docs will improve in the coming months so I wil wait for that.

..once upon a time, he mentioned that he is about to finish max3d as it is 'just around corner'...many things have been mentioned..
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Steve Elliott on September 04, 2017, 06:02:50 PM
Mark does tell a good (fantasy) story lol  :D
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: MikeHart on September 04, 2017, 09:48:18 PM
Now thst Marks Patreon support has dropped big time, i would not be surprised if his motivation drops also.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Steve Elliott on September 04, 2017, 09:52:02 PM
That's what happens if you bite the hand that feeds you!

I'm sorry, Mark is a talented guy, but he took us for fools, in the end.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Naughty Alien on September 05, 2017, 12:53:21 AM
Quote
Now thst Marks Patreon support has dropped big time, i would not be surprised if his motivation drops also.

..why is that happened ?? I mean, I thought that, patreon support came exclusively from Monkey+whatever supporters only ?? Not BMaxers and generally, BB based folks ? Or??
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: ThickO on September 05, 2017, 12:55:47 AM
400 a month, that's just sad. I could literally dig ditches part time for more than that.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Yue on September 05, 2017, 01:59:36 AM
Something tells me this is going to be a dead project.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Pingus on September 05, 2017, 02:03:39 AM
A question for you AGK experts, is it possible to call a compiled code (made in C++ or whatever) from the interpreted Tier1 code ?
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Qube on September 05, 2017, 03:23:34 AM
A question for you AGK experts, is it possible to call a compiled code (made in C++ or whatever) from the interpreted Tier1 code ?
AGK supports plugin's if that is any help to you? - https://www.appgamekit.com/documentation/guides/14_plugins.htm
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Kris on September 05, 2017, 03:29:52 AM
Wasn't there somebody who pledged $500 on Patreon after Mark said he needs at least a $1000 a month to dedicate himself to the 3D engine for monkey 2...? Maybe that person pulled out?
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: MikeHart on September 05, 2017, 05:32:07 AM
It was impixi who had pledged at least 500 usd. The last time i checked it was over 1100 so he lost around 700 all of a sudden.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: sphinx on September 05, 2017, 06:57:09 AM
I feel sad for Mark, he is a talented guy but sucks at marketing.
Even worse (my point of view) he did not treat his loyal users as he had to.

He had a treasure and he was trying to find the key, now he lost the treasure too!!
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Xaron on September 05, 2017, 07:17:58 AM
Apparently he knew this would come: http://monkeycoder.co.nz/forums/topic/patreon-below-500/
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: MikeHart on September 05, 2017, 08:59:01 AM
Apparently he knew this would come: http://monkeycoder.co.nz/forums/topic/patreon-below-500/ (http://monkeycoder.co.nz/forums/topic/patreon-below-500/)

Maybe. But the comment about now the need to try to find other fundings reminds me soooo much about a language developer who was milking his loyal followers in every possible way.  ;D

Also when I read that he was able to rent office space, I am convinced that he has the income that was needed to do it anyway.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: RonTek on September 05, 2017, 09:25:05 AM
I'm curious as to why the 3D module download link is nowhere publicly visible and available..

http://monkeycoder.co.nz/module-manager/

Maybe there's a need to do a detailed comparison between AGK vs Monkey2. I see there's already PBR on MX2 as mentioned on the site update somewhere before. I also wonder how it would fare against AGK on emscripten and android builds, 2D and 3D. Does AGK use emscripten or custom js like MonkeyX with HTML5 build?


Also, the topic title needs to be updated (AGK vs Monkey2)??
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: MikeHart on September 05, 2017, 10:24:44 AM
I'm curious as to why the 3D module download link is nowhere publicly visible and available..

http://monkeycoder.co.nz/module-manager/ (http://monkeycoder.co.nz/module-manager/)

Maybe there's a need to do a detailed comparison between AGK vs Monkey2. I see there's already PBR on MX2 as mentioned on the site update somewhere before. I also wonder how it would fare against AGK on emscripten and android builds, 2D and 3D. Does AGK use emscripten or custom js like MonkeyX with HTML5 build?


Also, the topic title needs to be updated (AGK vs Monkey2)??

That module page contained a much bigger list in the past. But at some point M.S. threw a lot of 3rd party modules out and it contains now only modules of his best buddies.

To my knowledge, mojo2 is now shipping with M2. I did a simple speed comparison with M2 and AGK, a spinning cube. I got only 20-30 FPS on my system with M2 and about 200 with AGK in Tier 1.

Xaron did a test recently where he wrote to an image. CX took 10 ms, M2 20 ms, AGK Tier 1 about 200 ms and AGK Tier 2 took 10 ms.

There is no PBR in AGK and I doubt it will come. They are not targeting high end systems. I think for M2 you need better performing machines.

And regarding HTML and AGK speed: I think CX wins here over AGK.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Pingus on September 05, 2017, 11:16:24 AM

[/quote]
AGK supports plugin's if that is any help to you? - https://www.appgamekit.com/documentation/guides/14_plugins.htm
[/quote]

Yep thanks :) !
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Qube on September 05, 2017, 03:47:18 PM
Quote
And regarding HTML and AGK speed: I think CX wins here over AGK.
I dunno, this runs pretty OK on my system considering it's not optimised in any shape or form http://www.syntaxbomb.com/CometKiller
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Pingus on September 05, 2017, 06:09:07 PM
Nice game.
However on my (pretty powerful) PC it shows some 'smoothness weakness'. Well that's pretty usual with browser games anyway.
As I mentioned today another engine in another post (defold), I had the curiosity to check a similar html5 demo.

http://www.cgamoment.com/cosmic/play.html

 I don't know if it's because it is a 2D engine and because you use 3D objects but it looks more smooth. Is there is a Windows (desktop) version of your game ?
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Steve Elliott on September 05, 2017, 06:39:16 PM
That game is moving very small 2d sprites about, and certainly not large 2d and normal mapped 3d graphics!

http://www.syntaxbomb.com/index.php/topic,3303.0.html
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Pingus on September 05, 2017, 06:58:34 PM
OK thanks. Desktop version smooth as butter.
I can not blame AGK  :P
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Qube on September 05, 2017, 09:06:47 PM
Quote
I don't know if it's because it is a 2D engine and because you use 3D objects but it looks more smooth. Is there is a Windows (desktop) version of your gam
The game was never meant for web browsers and it's definitely not optimised graphically as everything is over the top like 1024x1024 textures + normal map just for a crumby little comet. I'm surprised it even runs at any decent frame rate in a browser :P

( I see Steve posted the link, thanks, Steve )
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Steve Elliott on September 05, 2017, 09:08:28 PM
No probs  :)
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: RonTek on September 06, 2017, 11:01:30 AM
There is no PBR in AGK and I doubt it will come. They are not targeting high end systems. I think for M2 you need better performing machines.

I think they have mentioned PBR in their roadmap or product page..

Quote
The game engine provides an optimised and powerful 3D engine. Full shader support, height map terrain generation, shader, lighting and more. All popular 3D model formats are supported and new features such as shadows, 3D particles and PBR support are coming very soon.

https://www.appgamekit.com/technology

Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: RonTek on September 06, 2017, 11:10:15 AM
Ok I found a downloaded mojo3d copy from the posted link on the live chat a few months ago. (mojo3d_v0.0.9)
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Xaron on September 06, 2017, 11:18:51 AM
mojo3d is contained in the official Monkey download as well (1.1.06): https://blitzresearch.itch.io/monkey2
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: TomToad on September 06, 2017, 11:25:04 AM
I'm curious as to why the 3D module download link is nowhere publicly visible and available..

M2 v1.1.06 includes Mojo3D.

Edit: Xaron beat me to it while I was reading the thread  ;D
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: RonTek on September 06, 2017, 11:36:10 AM
Ah great, thanks guys.

The only issue that I have so far with Monkey2 is the build time where it now seems doubled or even longer compared to Monkey-X. I remember trying it once and having to wait a few minutes to build a simple demo or example, kind of reminds me of Haxe build time as well. Of course, there's also the C/C++ syntax thing which has become the default argument of most BRL users.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Pingus on September 06, 2017, 12:46:37 PM

The only issue that I have so far with Monkey2 is the build time

Oh ?! Long build times is what scare me the most. Can you estimate roughly how big your project is (number of lines) ?
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: RonTek on September 06, 2017, 01:05:35 PM

The only issue that I have so far with Monkey2 is the build time

Oh ?! Long build times is what scare me the most. Can you estimate roughly how big your project is (number of lines) ?

Hey Pingus, yes as I have posted above just the examples alone already takes some time to build (~300-500 lines). I'm going to try it again just to see how Mojo3D performs on older android devices.

Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Xaron on September 06, 2017, 01:45:21 PM
I'd be curious if mojo3d works on mobile devices at all yet. As far as I know this is still in progress. But keep us posted please.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: MikeHart on September 06, 2017, 03:03:41 PM
Hey Pingus, yes as I have posted above just the examples alone already takes some time to build (~300-500 lines). I'm going to try it again just to see how Mojo3D performs on older android devices.

Is it slow even with subsequent builds of the same project? With CX it is much slower on the first build cause all these files from GLFW will be compiled. Later on it is only the main file that is recompiled and then linked to the object files of GLFW.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: RonTek on September 06, 2017, 03:11:51 PM
Hey Pingus, yes as I have posted above just the examples alone already takes some time to build (~300-500 lines). I'm going to try it again just to see how Mojo3D performs on older android devices.

Is it slow even with subsequent builds of the same project? With CX it is much slower on the first build cause all these files from GLFW will be compiled. Later on it is only the main file that is recompiled and then linked to the object files of GLFW.

Hey Mike, it looks like it depends on the code changes, changing the title on android build took 17s, that's just the NDK .so file w/o the final gradle build. On that note, I'm still having problems setting up gradle on Monkey2, it seems it was not setup properly. On other foss projects, it is automatic when you run gradlew.bat and so now I have to install gradle manually. :/

Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: MikeHart on September 06, 2017, 03:24:22 PM
Hey Mike, it looks like it depends on the code changes, changing the title on android build took 17s, that's just the NDK .so file w/o the final gradle build. On that note, I'm still having problems setting up gradle on Monkey2, it seems it was not setup properly. On other foss projects, it is automatic when you run gradlew.bat and so now I have to install gradle manually. :/

I can't help you with M2. I just managed to get Android Studio running for CX. Wish was a hassle for itself. Or my stupidity, I don't know :D
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Pingus on September 06, 2017, 04:08:21 PM
Monkey2 examples takes time the first time they are builded, but further builds are much faster (not everything needs to be recompiled).

However, I made the following test that is not very encouraging:

I take a demo sample (pacman from Playniax PYro2 by example). Then I copy-paste a local code until I get 10000 lines of code in the same function (which is of course not a good practice ;).
First build require 49 secs to build. If I change nothing, the second build takes just 1 second. Ok fine.
Now I modify a line in any other function. And it takes again 49 secs !
My project beeing more on the 50000 lines side, it is totally impossible to imagine waiting several minutes each time I change a code line somewhere.! :o

Similar test with AGK show no compiling difference between a 1000 or 10000 lines code which is logical because there is no 'building/linking'.

Does that test means something compare to real practice ? Would it be different if instead of a function with 10000 lines I would have 100 functions of 100 lines (which is closer to real practice but I'm lazy to test it) ?

Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: RonTek on September 06, 2017, 04:13:22 PM
Hey Mike, it looks like it depends on the code changes, changing the title on android build took 17s, that's just the NDK .so file w/o the final gradle build. On that note, I'm still having problems setting up gradle on Monkey2, it seems it was not setup properly. On other foss projects, it is automatic when you run gradlew.bat and so now I have to install gradle manually. :/

I can't help you with M2. I just managed to get Android Studio running for CX. Wish was a hassle for itself. Or my stupidity, I don't know :D

Ah no worries ;D Hey with some luck and effort, I finally got my gradle setup and working now for Monkey2. Build the pool aka billiard aka 8 Ball Hustler bananas demo on droid. But wait, hmmm.. for a 2D game or demo, it seems there's a bit of a lag.  :-\

For anyone who wants to have a go at it..

8 Ball Hustler Monkey2 Demo APK Download (Debug)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v1uyhyzmwajnrai/pool-debug.apk?dl=0



Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: RonTek on September 06, 2017, 04:23:12 PM
Monkey2 examples takes time the first time they are builded, but further builds are much faster (not everything needs to be recompiled).

However, I made the following test that is not very encouraging:

I take a demo sample (pacman from Playniax PYro2 by example). Then I copy-paste a local code until I get 10000 lines of code in the same function (which is of course not a good practice ;).
First build require 49 secs to build. If I change nothing, the second build takes just 1 second. Ok fine.
Now I modify a line in any other function. And it takes again 49 secs !
My project beeing more on the 50000 lines side, it is totally impossible to imagine waiting several minutes each time I change a code line somewhere.! :o

Similar test with AGK show no compiling difference between a 1000 or 10000 lines code which is logical because there is no 'building/linking'.

Does that test means something compare to real practice ? Would it be different if instead of a function with 10000 lines I would have 100 functions of 100 lines (which is closer to real practice but I'm lazy to test it) ?

Those build times seems acceptable, at least for me. I'm more concerned with performance particularly when using 3D and on an average android device. Maybe Monkey2 is for newer or latest mobile devices??

Also, I can't find any Mojo3D examples to try out. hah!  ???



Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Steve Elliott on September 06, 2017, 08:13:27 PM
lol back in the day (at college) I had similar compile times from the College (shared) Mini Computer writing Pascal.

These compile times are unacceptable in this day and age IMO.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Qube on September 06, 2017, 08:37:45 PM
Funny how we had patience "back in the day" waiting for things to load off cassette. These days if we click on build and it's not up and running in a few seconds ( or quicker ) a mild rage builds inside :P
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Steve Elliott on September 06, 2017, 08:42:51 PM
lol very true...I remember the ZX Spectrum loading times.  You got used to it...But today, that is something I would not accept.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Pingus on September 06, 2017, 10:35:45 PM
Sure that compile time is long especially when you get used to < 8 s compile time with bmax (for a 50000+ project) since years.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: RonTek on September 07, 2017, 12:02:58 AM
Sure that compile time is long especially when you get used to < 8 s compile time with bmax (for a 50000+ project) since years.

I agree, you can compare it (Monkey2) with Blitzmax build time if you are a BRL user.

In general, if you are a young and hip coder, I don't think it matters. Fast forward, when you realize that you are not like that Highlander guy and only have N years to live then time is of the essence, even those precious build seconds. ;D
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: ThickO on September 10, 2017, 05:23:32 PM
lol very true...I remember the ZX Spectrum loading times.  You got used to it...But today, that is something I would not accept.

Yes and the error at the very end of the load. I never had a tape load error out at the beginning.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: playniax on September 11, 2017, 07:02:12 AM
The compile times are not bad. Yes, the first time can take a while but after the compile time is just a matter of seconds. It does seem to depend on how many changes you make and where to slow down a bit.

I am using monkey2 everyday and really, if the compile time was so bad I would already have thrown in the towel. Patience is really not my strong suit and the monkey2 language is really a joy to work with.

Monkey2 is also evolving rapidly. You can't compare it with say monkey2 from a year ago.

I have not tried AGK yet ( I will some day ) but I use monkey for the language and nothing even comes close!
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Xaron on September 11, 2017, 07:12:52 AM
Monkey 2 is probably a joy to work with when you know the language. The almost non existing documentation makes it nearly impossible for newcomers to even make some easy first steps. It's just frustrating even for me who tried it here and there and knowing Monkey 1 in and out.

When it comes to the language itself I simply don't get why one should use it for the language aspects. C++ and C# are both far superior and not harder to grasp.

When it comes to the whole package, I agree, Monkey 2 IS indeed a nice solution. For desktop only I'd say there are tons better out there (as I already said) for cross platform it's really nice.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: playniax on September 11, 2017, 09:04:35 AM
Okay, not here to start any arguments but...

> The almost non existing documentation makes it nearly impossible for newcomers to even make some easy first steps

Not that I am not agreeing with you on the docs, they could be A LOT better but maybe we are forgetting that monkey2 is relatively new?! Mark did a lot in such a small time! Also the language is 'FREE' and in active development! If it doesn't fill your need now, it may do so in a year or maybe never. Also nobody is asking anybody to wait.

BlitzMax wasn't that much better on the docs side, monkey1 wasn't that much better and from a lot of languages I have seen its also not a lot better. One just needs code examples, the other needs a complete step by step book! Not judging here, just who knows why this is.

> C++ and C# are both far superior and not harder to grasp

Yes, for you probably. For me sure but I just never liked them! Why? Don't know, just don't. When I started I did everthing in machine code and later assembler. I liked that very much but have no idea why.

But at the end of the day it is just a personal preference but objective opinions are hard to find...
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: RonTek on September 11, 2017, 10:37:48 AM
With my recent tests, Mojo3D still fails on android with those shader errors so technically it is not yet cross platform and so I could say it is too early to recommend or use Monkey 2. With Mojo3D officially included in the release, Monkey2 is now presented as both 2D and 3D.

As for docs, with BlitzMax, I refer to the wiki here and the old forum archive
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/BlitzMax/

There's also an entry for MX but only a few articles there..
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Monkey_X/

I agree with Martin there with Monkey 2 docs being non existent, it actually is. I have search and copy someone's template example just to get started with Mojo3D. I mean, Mojo3D is now included, so I find it a bit weird and inconvenient not finding any examples.

Perhaps this is a good site to start making those docs for Monkey 2??






Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: MikeHart on September 11, 2017, 11:10:23 AM
Rontek: Look inside the mojo3d module folder. The bananas/examples are there. At least the last time I checked which was a while ago.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: RonTek on September 11, 2017, 11:16:31 AM
Rontek: Look inside the mojo3d module folder. The bananas/examples are there. At least the last time I checked which was a while ago.

Thanks Mike, found it. It should be under bananas, but for some reason it was labelled tests and in modules folder. I will do more benchmark tests as I'm curious how this would work on android build.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: sphinx on September 11, 2017, 12:24:00 PM
Monkey is great as a language but I hated the name!
AGK is good and very easy to deploy with it.

Monkey 2, why should I bother when I have Monkey/CerberusX?!

I am asking the above question and willing for a good answer!
Really, I need someone to enlighten me because I do not see features that make me interested or am I wrong?!
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Naughty Alien on September 11, 2017, 01:27:08 PM
Quote
I am asking the above question and willing for a good answer!
Really, I need someone to enlighten me because I do not see features that make me interested or am I wrong?!

..because Mark is genius and he will do some awesome stuff and we will have something so powerful and it will be futureproof and its very exciting..and bla bla blahhh...

..in main time, somewhere in other unvierse, people playing in their room with  Unity, Unreal, Crytek, Godot, Xenko, Urho3d, b4x, Playcanvas, BabylonJS, Atomic Game Engine, WEBGL Studio, AGK,...........C#,C++...
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: sphinx on September 11, 2017, 05:45:43 PM
Quote
I am asking the above question and willing for a good answer!
Really, I need someone to enlighten me because I do not see features that make me interested or am I wrong?!

..because Mark is genius and he will do some awesome stuff and we will have something so powerful and it will be futureproof and its very exciting..and bla bla blahhh...

..in main time, somewhere in other unvierse, people playing in their room with  Unity, Unreal, Crytek, Godot, Xenko, Urho3d, b4x, Playcanvas, BabylonJS, Atomic Game Engine, WEBGL Studio, AGK,...........C#,C++...

Mark is really a genius person but he made/makes bad decisions (methink)!

I am sorry to say it but Mark (and don't get me wrong he is a decent guy) reminds me of Paul Turley, the author of IBasic, IBasic Pro, IWBasic, CBasic...etc
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: MikeHart on September 11, 2017, 05:52:56 PM
Quote
I am asking the above question and willing for a good answer!
Really, I need someone to enlighten me because I do not see features that make me interested or am I wrong?!

..because Mark is genius and he will do some awesome stuff and we will have something so powerful and it will be futureproof and its very exciting..and bla bla blahhh...

..in main time, somewhere in other unvierse, people playing in their room with  Unity, Unreal, Crytek, Godot, Xenko, Urho3d, b4x, Playcanvas, BabylonJS, Atomic Game Engine, WEBGL Studio, AGK,...........C#,C++...

Mark is really a genius person but he made/makes bad decisions (methink)!

I am sorry to say it but Mark (and don't get me wrong he is a decent guy) reminds me of Paul Turley, the author of IBasic, IBasic Pro, IWBasic, CBasic...etc


Hey @sphinx, I don't remember your nickname from the ibasic/ibasic Pro board. So you were around there back then?
Why does he remind you of good ol' P.T.?
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: sphinx on September 11, 2017, 06:28:59 PM
I was comparing different dialect of BASIC back then, reading from here and there, following different forums (I do not remember if I signed up for P.T forums or not).

Long story short, I read in different places not so good things about him, though he is talented guy.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: MikeHart on September 11, 2017, 07:40:47 PM
I was comparing different dialect of BASIC back then, reading from here and there, following different forums (I do not remember if I signed up for P.T forums or not).

Long story short, I read in different places not so good things about him, though he is talented guy.


Ya right. I was an avid Ibasic Pro user and community supporter back then. I got to know his shemes quite well.


You know that he is jail now? Serving 20-30 yrs? Glad he got what he deserves. These two poor girls will never have a normal life.

I am so bold to say that most of his languages were a big lie. He said he developed these things. When we got hold of the sources, it turns out that he used open source stuff where he said he devleoped it himself. He resold languages under different names, just rebranded them. He lied so much. Every month or so he beg the community for money because something drastic had happened. Surposingly he is one of the few who survided lung cancer. Yeah right.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: sphinx on September 11, 2017, 07:58:56 PM
Quote
You know that he is jail now? Serving 20-30 yrs? Glad he got what he deserves. These two poor girls will never have a normal life.
Yes, he deserves it, I did not want to tell that story for not causing any misunderstanding and people accuse me that I am throwing Mark with the same behavior!

Quote
I am so bold to say that most of his languages were a big lie. He said he developed these things. When we got hold of the sources, it turns out that he used open source stuff where he said he devleoped it himself. He resold languages under different names, just rebranded them. He lied so much. Every month or so he beg the community for money because something drastic had happened. Surposingly he is one of the few who survided lung cancer. Yeah right.
Seriously?!!!!
Shame on him  :o
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: sphinx on September 11, 2017, 08:03:39 PM
Quote
Why does he remind you of good ol' P.T.?
Similarities of making a language after another and not making a flagship product and enhances it overtime!
The only exception is that Mark gets bored, on the other hand Paul gets bankrupted or pretend to be  ;D
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Steve Elliott on September 11, 2017, 08:30:24 PM
Jees, no wonder people turn to that system hog and clicky thing.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: MikeHart on September 11, 2017, 10:06:27 PM
Quote
You know that he is jail now? Serving 20-30 yrs? Glad he got what he deserves. These two poor girls will never have a normal life.
Yes, he deserves it, I did not want to tell that story for not causing any misunderstanding and people accuse me that I am throwing Mark with the same behavior!

Quote
I am so bold to say that most of his languages were a big lie. He said he developed these things. When we got hold of the sources, it turns out that he used open source stuff where he said he devleoped it himself. He resold languages under different names, just rebranded them. He lied so much. Every month or so he beg the community for money because something drastic had happened. Surposingly he is one of the few who survided lung cancer. Yeah right.
Seriously?!!!!
Shame on him  :o


What i ment by reselling, he sold ibasic Pro to Tom Hanlin, then later sold EBasic which just a rebrand but he stated that it was complete rewrite. Same goes with IBasic and CWBasic. And so on. He used an OSS 3d engine and said he created it. Sold that too.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: MikeHart on September 11, 2017, 10:23:34 PM
Jeeez The Paul Turley times still wild me up. I was basically one of the first who called him out, that he is scamming people. Oh they loved him and they came with pitch forks after me (which several year later they apologized for).
At one point he decided to sell Pyxia.com and with it, the rights to IBP and IB. Supposingly a Tom Hanlin (Powerbasic) bought it. TH contacted me shortly after the deal was done and asked me to work on IBP. So I did, enhanced the 2D side big time and other stuff. Never saw a dime for it. Then all of a sudden Tom Hanlin dissapears, never to be seen.
With the help of the community he got located, Police was sent to his house. He said he has no deals with Pyxia.
Shortly after that, the Pyxia.com site was hacked and everything was deleted. Complete shutdown and the community was gone. We think that Paul Turley left a backdoor open and did that. And guess what. During that time he released EBasic, said it was a complete rewrite from the ground up. Which it wasn't. It was IBasic Pro rebranded. I can even tell you more but that would go to far.

Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Pingus on September 11, 2017, 10:42:05 PM
@Playniax

Quote
I am using monkey2 everyday and really, if the compile time was so bad I would already have thrown in the towel.

May I ask you how much code lines are you compiling ? I guess I need to make further tests, because ~1mn for 10000 lines seems really not good.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Qube on September 12, 2017, 12:31:35 AM
Cor, must of missed all the Paul Turley drama. I remember IBasic, the variants and murmurs about it but never heard the full story till now. Blissfully unaware me was :o
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: sphinx on September 12, 2017, 04:14:11 AM
Supposingly a Tom Hanlin (Powerbasic) bought it.
I think Tom Hanlin is in charge for PowerBasic after Bob Zale passed away a few years ago, Well, may God be with Mr Zale's wife as I read she is counting on him :(
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: MikeHart on September 12, 2017, 05:12:30 AM
Powerbasic got sold further and is now under new owner ship.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Kris on October 01, 2017, 04:37:23 PM
I have not tried AGK yet ( I will some day ) but I use monkey for the language and nothing even comes close!

Hey, playniax, I would love to read more about why you think monkey 2 is such a good language. I don't know much about it and would love to read a kind of technical review from a power user. If you have some time, please do a mini language review based on your experiences maybe in a new topic. Thanks in advance.

Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Naughty Alien on October 02, 2017, 11:07:53 AM
Quote
I have not tried AGK yet ( I will some day ) but I use monkey for the language and nothing even comes close!

..well..this statement contradicting itself..i guess its natural to say that nothing comes to only solution used while others were not tried at all..its basically situation where i claim that nothing comes close to my bicycle, but i never tried anything else, which is in essence true from my point of view as an act of experience, but false in terms of reality where Suzuki Hayabusa exists just fine for quite some time..
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Xaron on October 02, 2017, 11:11:16 AM
Haha Naughty Alien, reminds me on the famous blue stone of Galveston:

Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Steve Elliott on October 02, 2017, 11:36:58 AM
lmao  ;D
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: playniax on October 02, 2017, 05:29:45 PM
Quote
statement contradicting itself
Nope, I don't need to try AGK to know this. One look at the language and knowing monkey says it all for me: https://www.appgamekit.com/documentation/language.html
And don't get me started on contradictions...
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Steve Elliott on October 02, 2017, 06:05:43 PM
Talking of documentation, I can just pick up one of many C++ books/online documentation and use it with AGK if I need fancy OOP features lol  :P
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: playniax on October 02, 2017, 07:22:37 PM
Quote
I can just pick up one of many C++ books/online documentation and use it with AGK
But it will still be C++
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Steve Elliott on October 02, 2017, 07:33:49 PM
Yes, but IMO Mark has moved so far down that road with every language, you might as well use an industry standard - like C++ or C#

Blitz3d with say, classes and function over-loading would be more akin to his market.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: ms62 on October 03, 2017, 01:03:36 PM
IMO,

AGK is a game engine. Its BASIC is a way to use it. We can use it with C++ too.  Monkey 2 is a language. So, they are different. One began with game engine concept, the other with computer language concept. AGK is like Blitz3D, the language part is less important. Monkey 2 is like Java or C#, the language part is important. When Monkey 2 talks of 2D or 3D games in many platforms, it wants to show the power of the language and the underlying design and technique, when AGK talks about 2D or 3D game in multiple platforms, it wants to show that game programming is possible with minimum effort. AGK is limited to game programming. That is its beginning and its end, unless it  takes the language part to a new level. However, if in this stage, it can  produce games effectively , there is no need for it. Monkey 2 is a language, so you can attach frameworks and libraries to it and use it for everything.

Now, if you want to make game and hopefully make money, AGK seems to be better. If you want to invest your time in a universal language to gain skills to be applied for variaties of domains, go fo Monkey 2. However, it is risky because C#, Java and Swift are there and are stable and are very practical.

For hobby, feel you are in the wonderland. Try everything.

This is the history of Monkey 2 IMO. It was first a game engine called Blitz3D with a language called BlitzBasic. It was wonderful, and still is, especially with Fast Libraries. Then it became a language called BlitzMax. Blitz3D was completly lost in it. Its Windows part was thrown away, it bacame OpenGL from DirectX for the sake of multiplatformism. Its language part was completly redesigned to be OOP with features like C++ or Java. Blitz3D became a language, not a game engine called BlitzMax. Community got it wrong, which is a different story. BlitzMax was for 3 desktop platforms, no mobile. Then the language was partially redesigned to be fully multiplatform, it became Monkey 1. For further multiplatformism and further language enhancement, it became Monkey 2. Now Monkey 2 is a complete language with many features included in evolved OOP methodology of programming. You can complety change its underlying methodology, but the language is there without any change. So, any problems related to compiling can be solved. Perhaps the designer of Blitz3D had really not the engine but the language in mind at that tome. Whatever it was, it seems the job is done. The ultimate language for the designer is invented. Along the road many people used the Blitz languages for different purposes. They were many demands. Some of them met, some one them not. It is not the designer fault that Monkey 2 is not sophisticated Blitz3D without a shiney game engine. Designer is slave of nobody. He doesn’t owe a penny to those who has used his languages. Users bought, used and the products went through their life cycle. At the end, the future of Monkey 2 depends on other software engineers to provide libraries and engine for it. If you want to understand Monkey 2, you have to imagine Python, while Monkey 2 is a lot better, imo. Designer of Monkey 2 doesn’t have bad attitude. His personality must be understood. His disloyality must be understood. He is a language designer. He had to lie sometimes in a world full of hypocracy and pretention, or may be no lie but just change of direction. When he looks at a game engine, he sees language, not a game engine. AGK for him is nothing, while for many is eveything. Respect his humanity. All IMO, valid or not, do not insult please!

Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: ms62 on October 03, 2017, 01:30:39 PM
Personally, considering that personal satisfaction is limited and narrow, I wish there were no BlitzMax or Monkies. I mean I wish there was no multiplatformism; only Windows and only DirectX. Then, Blitz3D evolution and development could be around language enhancement (adding partial OOP capability and better module plugins) and  2D/3D updates based of DirectX. AGK can begin this path. But, it seems AGK guys are more money people than science.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: ms62 on October 03, 2017, 01:50:56 PM
This is for Mark:
If it is true that you  are indeed a language designer, then you better continue your work in AI. The ultimate design of language is removing necessity for computer language for communicating with machines. Once communication is possible in form of natural language, then the rest will be done by machines.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: ms62 on October 03, 2017, 01:56:53 PM
How about me?

Well, I am not a professional game programmer. I like to ask computer to do somthing for me. Don’t take me wrong, I am not selfish at all, I just do not pretend. For that, I have found BlitzMax and Java the most satisfying one. I wish BlitzMax had all that Java has:

AWT
Swing
JavaFX
JMonkeyEngine
Slick2D
LibGDK
Many others: Database, Charting, AI, statistics ...

I forgot this, while BlitzMax and Java are languages for OOP methodology, I don’t believe in OOP. I just got used to it, just like getting used to wasting my life is  traffic  eveyday, eating garbage instead of real food;  they want you to have it, absorb and say nothing.

Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Naughty Alien on October 03, 2017, 02:27:07 PM
Quote
Designer of Monkey 2 doesn’t have bad attitude. His personality must be understood. His disloyality must be understood. He is a language designer. He had to lie sometimes in a world full of hypocracy and pretention, or may be no lie but just change of direction. When he looks at a game engine, he sees language, not a game engine. AGK for him is nothing, while for many is eveything. Respect his humanity. All IMO, valid or not, do not insult please!

..thats something what Ferrari, Bugatti, etc, designers used to think, until Fiat, Volkswagen took over them, or they will die of starvation..you know..designers of that not so pretty cars, but functional..

..designer should learn that he need a userbase in order to survive...just a thought..
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: ms62 on October 03, 2017, 03:50:18 PM
Naughty Alien,

I agree, I add my part that "userbase" means listening, not going too much ahead, not falling behind, having transparency, accepting that good for humanity comes from cooperation, not heroism, not competition. It is possible to have userbase without synergy, but the life of the product and the order of the community will be short. AGK didn't have 3D shadows, they asked us what we want, we said 3D shadows, we got it in less than a year. Now, if they listen, I ask for a better language, some touch of OOP, not too much. Sqlite demand is still on the table for many years. In Monkey 2, Sqlite is part of the package, of course, like always, without any guide. I still cannot open a simple text file with it, but I saw a good resource manager  :o

I sold my BMW for VW. Cheaper, has no prestige, but as comfortable or even more comfortable in some cases. Java has prestige, BlitzMax is comfortable. BlitzMax could be practical or even Blitz3D, unfortunately Java seems to be better in this case, or, they have made it practical finally a decade ago. Oh, it is that effort, making something practical, that helps too. Monkey 2 can still survive and become good.

A question, it seems Monkey 2 creates projects based on the compiler of a platform and runs that project. Is this is a good design? Isn't writing particular compiler better? Or, may be it is too much work. I think PureBasic compiles directly just like C. I like that. Can someone explain how Monkey 2 compiles comparing to C?  For AGK, I think its BASIC converts codes to C++ then runs C++. I found no problem with it. It ran my 3D spaceship with shadows and many objects in the scene very well. I wish I shouldn't have to spend time to write infinite plane for it, though!
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: sphinx on October 03, 2017, 05:40:42 PM
Now, if you want to make game and hopefully make money, AGK seems to be better. If you want to invest your time in a universal language to gain skills to be applied for variaties of domains, go fo Monkey 2. However, it is risky because C#, Java and Swift are there and are stable and are very practical.
It is risky not because other languages are around (they are around all the time) it is risky because you will invest your time (again and again...!!) in a language which the developer will get bored sometime soon and will come up with a new language which has no backward compatibility and even worse has no documentation whatsoever!
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: ms62 on October 03, 2017, 06:55:52 PM
sphinx, I see risk for those young guys who want to enter game producing industry. There are two paths, one is to be hired, the other is to develop your own game and sell. If they spend time on unknown languages and environments, they develop some skills that there are no demand for. Of course, some skills are abstract, but most of the firms prefer not to spend on training for transition. Another risk of spending time is the one that you say, and is true; you put your time (money is equivalent to time in capitalism, we don't charge them in traffic jam, they charge us for the gas in our car) on a product, then you see the product is abandoned; it is like burning your paper money.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: Steve Elliott on October 03, 2017, 06:57:24 PM
Soo very true sphinx, that is why myself and others are done with Mark and BRL.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: sphinx on October 03, 2017, 07:28:16 PM
sphinx, I see risk for those young guys who want to enter game producing industry. There are two paths, one is to be hired, the other is to develop your own game and sell. If they spend time on unknown languages and environments, they develop some skills that there are no demand for. Of course, some skills are abstract, but most of the firms prefer not to spend on training for transition. Another risk of spending time is the one that you say, and is true; you put your time (money is equivalent to time in capitalism, we don't charge them in traffic jam, they charge us for the gas in our car) on a product, then you see the product is abandoned; it is like burning your paper money.
People who look for getting hired do not even care to try out anything but industry standards (C++, Java or even C# through Unity...etc).
Indie developers like us, hobbyists or young guys who want to enter game producing industry has many options to choose from, if I am new and looking for something to start with (either a programming language or point and click) I am sure I will not choose Blitz products, not because they are weak or feature poor but because the knowledge I gain about BRL history and for the sake of my future.

Though, I like Blitz products, I even made many cool things/games with it and as a matter of fact I am still using it, but not for too long as I am moving away!
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: MikeHart on October 03, 2017, 07:40:48 PM
For AGK, I think its BASIC converts codes to C++ then runs C++.
Nope, AGK Tier 1 is an interpreted language. Your BASIC code is compiled to a bytecode, which will be run by the interpreter/player. That code calls into the AGK API, the same that is used in Tier2 directly.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: sphinx on October 03, 2017, 07:40:56 PM
By 'BRL history' I do not mean bad (They are great guys and their history is good) but I am talking about me (the end user) wasting a lot of time!, please review my post #91 above!
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: ms62 on October 03, 2017, 07:51:21 PM
Sphinx, you don’t have stats to say “what” people think. Relax :D

MikeHart, thanks, your Monkey book was a good one. Unfortunately, I was in love with BlitzMax.
Title: Re: AGK vs Monkey?!
Post by: sphinx on October 03, 2017, 09:25:59 PM
Sphinx, you don’t have stats to say “what” people think. Relax :D

MikeHart, thanks, your Monkey book was a good one. Unfortunately, I was in love with BlitzMax.
You are right, it is all based on my readings!