SyntaxBomb - Indie Coders

Just a fun little test for my rendering pipeline.
Runs better than I would have thought, the scene has a pretty high poly count and lots of textures.

It's basically just pretty straight forward high range HDR and PBR bruteforce test with lots of post shenanigans.
Does have dual lightmapping (like in my lightmapper tests), so that I can add dynamic shadows to the soft precomputed ones without issues.
Also had an idea for a fun way to do glass, I wanted to be able to do it without having to render the scene twice. (usually you would render a refraction texture and then use that when rendering the main scene, but I found a way to do it with just one scene render. Gotta love how flexible AGK is). Plus I wanted the refractions and reflections from the back walls of the objects too anyway, which a traditional method wouldn't have correctly reproduced.

As usual, images are linked to the full sized versions, which are direct unprocessed grabs from AGK.

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6Wjwq9Zh.jpg&hash=3baccb425495ead42e4937eb04a47d949d6459d5) (https://imgur.com/6Wjwq9Z)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPxMjqcah.jpg&hash=afed4274bb91a4d5f13dfc3cf5cf3935dd603445) (https://imgur.com/PxMjqca)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9LpHxN9h.jpg&hash=c5a708bc33786ec529c202a46d1ada29829b9111) (https://imgur.com/9LpHxN9)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FFTVUCWhh.jpg&hash=3fd993d93a9f7987fb23aa177cdaac3fa84c4c95) (https://imgur.com/FTVUCWh)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FskPpkhbh.jpg&hash=326acb118b88cd0334d95024e2a4b990ea227e81) (https://imgur.com/skPpkhb)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FkjoAMoLh.jpg&hash=fb017d0047ceb34c5c83ce5c96f8279118c43638) (https://imgur.com/kjoAMoL)

WOW!! that looks fantastic. Really really nice work you've got there :o

Package up the shaders, make a product and demand cash from me ;D

Superb.

Bloody Hell!  :o

Very nice! On first glace I thought they were proper photos!

R-U-Kidding me??? This is so absolutely stunning. I almost can't believe it's *not* real, but done in AGK!   :o

Only thing that could give it away is that there is no dirt, stains on the tablecloth and chairseat nor any breadcrumbs, i.a.w: it's super clean and perfect.
(could still be like that though in real life, when someone was overly tidy, like my.. ahum, gf. ;D )


Truly amazed.  8) Like this gonna be really hard to tell fake from real in future.

Didn't see you post the screenshots on AGK's forum, but I think you should for it's a real good demo of what a capable person like yourself can achieve with AGK and is good advertisement for them, which might help them gain some good o'l dirty c€$h so can keep developing.

:) Thanks guys.

@Rick Nasher
Yeah AGK is much more powerful than most people give it credit for.
I will post a thread over there once it is finished, this will be a much bigger demo level showing off some fun effects.
Dirtying it up a bit is a good idea. :)

@Cube
Unfortunately the shaders are just 10% of it. Would have to build an extensive addon so that people can create all the needed data to feed the shaders and also run a fully HDR post chain.
Just as an example: How would users capture and convolute the correct reflection probes for the levels? And would they know how to store HDR high precision data without FP texture access? When it comes to PBR, the devil is in the details.  :D
But we will see, would definitely be a fun challenge to make it user friendly. Have to finish the particle project first though.

I'm seriously impressed with this work as well, in all honesty. I assume you do this for a living. If not then why not?

I wish.  :P
Unfortunately I have to waste my time with contract work on web/mobile nonsense to get through the month.

Optimized the material shaders a bit and worked on the main particle system. Time to add the effects next, it's slowly starting to shape up.

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FbKXl42oh.jpg&hash=96d1cc6fc1d7d6cb91183c124e56ff5505b3d014) (https://imgur.com/bKXl42o)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FbTE3ko2h.jpg&hash=d0c6039679f0c34f790a48957d35daf607bda494) (https://imgur.com/bTE3ko2)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYFQAdKuh.jpg&hash=6ed301a1f74e242e709984122bc65c528f8854f3) (https://imgur.com/YFQAdKu)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FDW8SQcQh.jpg&hash=f79e4bc8e1d87f1820f1d368d96ba94f4ae086aa) (https://imgur.com/DW8SQcQ)

As nobody is brave enough to nitpick ;-)
Is this an orange fruit or a peach? If it was an orange it should not have this kind of fresnel effect of incoming backlight. Maybe it is a peach - as it also does not "reflect" as much as an orange would. So excuse If I mix fruits here ;-)

Aside of that: looks preeetty good - albeit I would not put so many promotional products in my kitchen.


PS: I miss the cheese - you got a cheese knife laying around but no tasty cheese. Put some in there - good chance to have shaders for some "melting" stuff (think of some french cheese).

PPS: As said by others: it looks too clean. Add some breadcrumbs, Finger prints on the glass. Why? You want to show a _living_area_ (with the sketch book laying around etc.)

PPPS: Still looks way/tons better than what I can _render_. Maybe add some camera-animated shots - aka "videos2".


Edit: After posting my eyes fell on the handle of the electric kettle: it has very similar issues with either fresnell or some kind of "subsurface scattering" (as if it was "wax" or thin plastic):
(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FIkCKdOm.png&hash=9424ad09691d5f8d0bbc3c7728c77040f28e06d7)
Is there a reason for it to "shine" so much? Maybe it's a light source not visible in the scene (way more on the "right") ?

bye
Ron

That's just an old probe I forgot to redo, the shadow of the object itself is missing in the probe. The later ones are correct, but some still need to be redone. But I want to finish the scene first and then run an entire new pass because I am still changing some textures around.

Think you talked about the electric kettle? Wrong probe data might explain stuff. That's the issue with "prepared data". Just wait X years and we get it in real-time ;-)

So: is it an orange or a peach? (orange = bit of reflection, peach: receives a kind of fresnel because of its hairy skin).


bye
Ron

@GaborD, Silly question but could you do a camera flyby around the scene for a youtube video ( would be a cool demo ) or does this only work for static scenes?

Improved some of the geometry and redid a few probes, plus added an extra shader for multi-probe objects (some just looked too weird with only 1).
Also added an object based f0 control for coated objects where the default isn't a 100% fit and tweaked some roughness values.
Plus finally adding the particles, which is what this is all about.

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuAGeqrKh.jpg&hash=0351475c45475598473df1a58d2b69c3fe20572a) (https://imgur.com/uAGeqrK)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fh0G6LHDh.jpg&hash=ca9d2ce9a26c88c2d8b39d317a76f07a9a71384c) (https://imgur.com/h0G6LHD)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F40dWtbvh.jpg&hash=2417c2f2c2ea7772ee6cf98422a2bc1ce627e8b3) (https://imgur.com/40dWtbv)

@Qube Yeah can capture one. I actually ordered a capture card over the weekend, but they delivered the wrong one today lol. Gonna try with Shadowplay, hope that works. Both Fraps and Bandicam are kinda unusable for anything above 720p if you want 60FPS vids.

New TGC product AGK Studio. Is there a connection here?
(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5220.0;attach=1694)

@blink0k:
Ah you've seen it too. To say it in a popular way: is there any collusion?   :o

@GaborD:
If so will below promise still hold up?

Quotewill post a thread over there once it is finished, this will be a much bigger demo level showing off some fun effects. 

I always share my test shots for engine promotion, was the same in NB and other engines I used. No conspiracy lol.
The level is a good stress test due to the complex effects chain, so I gladly help to test.

But this is just a fun demo for the particles I am working on. Admittedly, not much in terms of particles in it yet.  ;D
Originally I just wanted a simple bare room, but I got sidetracked, as usual.
On the bright side, I got the glass system out of it, a better HDR post chain and some semi-decent AA. Will be useful.
At this rate I will finally start making an actual game in about 10 to 20 years.


Today's slowpoke additions:
Improved the glass, cam facing-ish surfaces have less drastic refraction now, looks more natural.
Also tweaked some albedo values, for instance the salt shaker is not so extremely dark anymore.
Managed to get some of the most problematic objects almost specular aliasing free (the fork was notorious, sub-pixel thin ultra bright specular lines along the edges), managed to get it pretty clean now, only the glass still has some issues. This is the stuff that nightmares are made of. Forget monsters, forget being naked in front of a crowd, forget Freddy. Specular aliasing is the truely scary stuff.

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYPLCwmKh.jpg&hash=f466787e662c1becca0e747122b47bc4685b7e5e) (https://imgur.com/YPLCwmK)

Seriously impressive work ;D

I'm sure this guy is just taking photos  :P

Some shots from the new added parts.
Was a fun rendering demo to make. Learned a lot from it.

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FFh5V8d9h.jpg&hash=b746992adc5c67466a01c7d2847b38fc0c540939) (https://imgur.com/Fh5V8d9)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSHoQxlGh.jpg&hash=74d8495377398ee8ad355e95ff465c70fe929df3) (https://imgur.com/SHoQxlG)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQaeNFMzh.jpg&hash=bac04d971ecc121ede476e6799a1cad34b7e8545) (https://imgur.com/QaeNFMz)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F63JdQPph.jpg&hash=a35b2d1b5d3323eb42c95eb74703413a71647638) (https://imgur.com/63JdQPp)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FUnQUEG3h.jpg&hash=7b5bc225b8ac08d68b90867b2e7539583163f88a) (https://imgur.com/UnQUEG3)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FopFvbEGh.jpg&hash=7255a7f0942af115195346801cb99bf454bb4a9e) (https://imgur.com/opFvbEG)

Quote from: therevills on February 23, 2019, 07:40:01
I'm sure this game is just taking photos  :P

The promo vid of AGK S is just tooooo insanely gorgeous:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLPd3y58dJw

What a humbling work of art..

Quote from: Rick Nasher on March 02, 2019, 08:24:23

Quote from: therevills on February 23, 2019, 07:40:01
I'm sure this game is just taking photos  :P

What a humbling work of art..

Agk classic can do the same. It is the same engine. But this video will make believe that you need agks to achieve the same. Perfect marketing hoax. I wish people would wake up.

Quote from: MikeHart on March 02, 2019, 13:10:45

Quote from: Rick Nasher on March 02, 2019, 08:24:23

Quote from: therevills on February 23, 2019, 07:40:01
I'm sure this game is just taking photos  :P

What a humbling work of art..

Agk classic can do the same. It is the same engine. But this video will make believe that you need agks to achieve the same. Perfect marketing hoax. I wish people would wake up.

Hehehe, this might vey well be true. For GaborD didn't mention before that wasn't done in AGK2.
Nevertheless, doing the same on the Vulkan engine might give faster fps, for that's apparently what Vulkan does.
For now there's nothing to compare, only a drop in fps due to the fact that the Studio editor appears to take some away. So good marketting indeed. Buy-before-you-try.  :))
'Funding secured'  lol

Quote from: MikeHart on March 02, 2019, 13:10:45
Agk classic can do the same. It is the same engine. But this video will make believe that you need agks to achieve the same. Perfect marketing hoax. I wish people would wake up.

All of that has nothing to do with this thread here, it's titled "in AGK" and was posted before I even knew of Studio.
I haven't even talked about Studio.
Please keep unrelated drama to it's appropiate places.
I just want to motivate people to make cool stuff and show what some of these underrated engines can actually do if one puts in a bit of effort.

In any case, I actually watched that video again... It just lists the Studio features.
The 3D scenes shown are indeed running realtime in the Studio Beta. I can vouch for that.
Does it run the same in AGK2? Yes. But noone claimed otherwise. Since when is backwards compability not a plus?

Anyway, to me most of the new features seem to be well worth the upgrade price. Your mileage may ofcourse vary.
They ask for 50 bucks after 5 or 6 years for a major update... come on.
There is a reason why all the "lifetime free upgrades" engines (still cry for my beloved NB) got abandoned and died. Let's keep that in mind.

Anyway. Big picture inc.
(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FjuuWvaMh.jpg&hash=e002239ea17e05e0886331066905ca9e9bceb705) (https://imgur.com/juuWvaM)

The outdoor scene looks a bit "washed out".
Maybe create different "environment setups" (daylight, night, ...) to show it off a bit better.


Generally: I understand wishes to promote something - so put a logo/name semi-hidden here and there in pictures - but imho this "APK everywhere" makes things looks less good as they could - they "distract" and make it less more realistic/believeable.


How long did setup of the outdoor-scene took? Where do you setup it? I assume "AGK Studio" is pretty rough on almost all edges so it won't contain a fully fledged 3d-world-setup-thingy with node based shader setups etc.
People should consider using something like Blender and enable "import" of the .blend files into their engines (or create converters) - similar as Godot does. No need to reinvent the wheel all the time.




bye
Ron

Even though it's a bit... I agree with GaborD:
The fee they're asking is *quite* modest and affordable(got nearly 2 years of free updates), so I supported them by buying the Studio, even though it's not using the Vulkan engine yet, which for me is actually beneficial as it's not supported on my GPU.  ;D

What people are complaining about is probably that some pieces of AGK feel like as if they're unfinished, like no spotlights, no vehicle physics, rudimentary networking, no asynchronous loading. And then some try-outs that weren't quite as expected, like the Visual Studio and became abandon-ware like DarkBasic.
In comparison with other dev systems that may seem bit off, but if you look at the *real* price tag for those things and AGK's ease of use then it's a very modest fee and understandable that they probably don't have 50 people working at it.

Meanwhile, I support them to have some bread on the table so can continue their development.
Perhaps when they're done I can afford a new laptop or videocard for my desktop.  :)


@GaborD - question:
Did you notice already any significant fps differences between AGK2's OpenGL and the AGKS's Vulkan engine?
Or are you not allowed to comment on that?

Quote
The promo vid of AGK S is just tooooo insanely gorgeous:

I can't see anything, did you remove the video?

Quote from: Steve Elliott on March 02, 2019, 19:50:46
I can't see anything, did you remove the video?

Think it is an browser issue (saw this in my forum recently too). The html code of the website contains the <iframe tag> to display the video:


<div class="yt-wrapper">
  <iframe class="youtube-player" type="text/html" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/MLPd3y58dJw" allowfullscreen frameborder="0">
</iframe>

(that {youtube}...{/youtube} tags are added by the forum software it is not present in the html output).


Ahhhh simple solution: I guess you (@Steve Elliot) are visiting syntaxbomb via httpS ? The youtube link is a http one (no https) - this leads to the issue above.

here the same link wrapped into an {youtube}-tag - but this time I used the https link to the video:


If you just write the link without the youtube-bbcode you get the same result - so it seems to be just a matter of whether you used http or https.
To avoid issues with "http" or "https" some forum software uses a {youtube=ID}description{/youtube} style. The forum then converts to a link containing https or http depending on the uri scheme the forum is using during page display.

bye
Ron

Quote from: Steve Elliott on March 02, 2019, 19:50:46
I can't see anything, did you remove the video?

I've fixed the post :)

Very impressive work but totally naughty on TGC's side for promoting AGK with it. While technically it can, in reality 99% of people won't be able to do it even if you provided them the models and textures. The whole thing requires extensive technical knowledge of shaders. AGK's built in 3D commands can not produce this kind of output ( without super shader knowledge ). The lighting and texture commands in AGK do not produce this kind of output. Totally false advertising!

As it's called App GAME Kit then also I find this is false advertising as I don't think this kind of scene could be interactive in a game like in an FPS. I could be wrong but my guess is most of it is GPU instancing and the individual models could not be bouncing around the scene?. Could be totally wrong of course.

As said, while extremely impressive shader work I think TGC are highly misleading customers by using it to promote AGK.

Quote@GaborD - question:
Did you notice already any significant fps differences between AGK2's OpenGL and the AGKS's Vulkan engine?

I could be wrong but I don't think the alpha version of AGK Studio has the Vulkan engine in it yet.

Quote
As said, while extremely impressive shader work I think TGC are highly misleading customers by using it to promote AGK.

Agreed.  On the plus side if you can produce something similar then the renderer can be fully accessed without being hindered by the system.

@Derron
Ah that explains it. I had to just sometimes press refresh and it would still show though.

@Qube

QuoteAs said, while extremely impressive shader work I think TGC are highly misleading customers by using it to promote AGK.... I could be wrong but I don't think the alpha version of AGK Studio has the Vulkan engine in it yet.

That's exactly what I'd like to hear about from GaborD:
Does it have faster fps in AGK Studio, as he's using the Beta version, not Alpha as you can see in quote below and does that Beta have the Vulkan engine?

Quote
The 3D scenes shown are indeed running realtime in the Studio Beta. I can vouch for that.
Does it run the same in AGK2? Yes. But noone claimed otherwise. Since when is backwards compability not a plus?

Quote from: Rick Nasher on March 02, 2019, 23:27:06
Does it have faster fps in AGK Studio, as he's using the Beta version, not Alpha as you can see in quote below and does that Beta have the Vulkan engine?

No, sorry, my bad. I don't have an advanced version with Vulkan or anything. I though this is all beta. It just says a version number in the editor.
I am looking forward to Vulkan though, had good experiences with it in past projects.

Quote from: Qube on March 02, 2019, 20:31:40
As it's called App GAME Kit then also I find this is false advertising as I don't think this kind of scene could be interactive in a game like in an FPS. I could be wrong but my guess is most of it is GPU instancing and the individual models could not be bouncing around the scene?. Could be totally wrong of course.

Unfortunately, in this case, you are indeed right.. about being completely wrong. :)
Whoever told you what instancing is should be fish-slapped.
Not that I even have many instanced objects. (other than the particles).
It's a pretty standard scene I would also build for a game that has this style.

In any case, it runs around several times faster than any Unity or UE4 demo I tried (including those single corridor ones) and I could double speed just by lowering the crazy AA settings... if this is not game usable in your opinion, then what are those? Staticly frozen in a time bubble slideshows?  ;)

Quote from: Qube on March 02, 2019, 20:31:40
While technically it can, in reality 99% of people won't be able to do it even if you provided them the models and textures. The whole thing requires extensive technical knowledge of shaders. AGK's built in 3D commands can not produce this kind of output ( without super shader knowledge ). The lighting and texture commands in AGK do not produce this kind of output.

I do fully agree that many users can't recreate demos the engines show off with.
That is the same in UE4 and in Unity and probably most other engines.

Just for fun, let's pick a simple example, with a static level with precomputed GI to keep it easy:
Unity Book of Dead walkthrough demo.
How many new Unity users would be able to recreate the custom occlusion probe system used?
The custom atmospheric scattering
Convert the high poly scanned models to game usable assets
Don't forget the the dripping sap effect from their first vid. That was pretty cool actually. 
The custom transmissive shader with thickness maps ( uh oh custom shader :) )
The custom object space normalmaps! Basically making all their rock etc surface shaders custom
Don't forget the clutter spawner that uses physics to populate the area with small fallen twigs and such.
How many new Unity users can create the wind vector field with a fluid simulation? And also loop it. Yes loop the simulated 3D vector field seamlessly. 
Because they use that. 

Honestly, why aren't you attacking them? Because no Unity beginner can do any of that. 
The AGK stuff I use is 10 times simpler. I have a few custom shaders, lol. Not complex ones either. Mostly just copying data around.
Compare that to what I just listed from a typical Unity demo.
Seriously, they show much more unattainable stuff in any of their demos than I ever would be able to produce.
They also had a team of 12 specialized pros working on it for god knows how long, a luxury a new Unity user prolly can't afford.
At least for the AGK demo it's also just one person doing it for fun. Working some evenings and nights.

Hope the point came across, even if it sounded harsh. Sorry for that, haha. No offense meant.

edit: _ Fun thing I just saw: the Unity guys got flamed for the same thing on PolyCount hahaha. _

Yes they all show stuff that can be done, not what will be done by the beginner level users.
But that's OK.
Here is the thing... people should see it as motivation and try to be able to do it, in the end that is what separates game devs from the chaff.

QuoteWhoever told you what instancing is should be fish-slapped.

Lol, I know what GPU instancing is, I've used it in Unity for trees and grass :P - Sorry, I didn't word it correctly. What I meant by that was a question as to if the whole scene was sent to the GPU each frame like if you were to use the inbuilt 3D commands of AGK?

Quoteif this is not game usable in your opinion, then what are those? Staticly frozen in a time bubble slideshows?  ;)

I was just curious if that scene could actually be used and interacted with in a game. For example throwing the chairs around, kicking the table, throwing the vase etc etc. Just wondering if there was some magic going on behind the scenes that would make it not game interactive as we know it as AGK's built in commands can not render that detail, lighting or shadows, hence why I say it's false advertising in a way for how the product is marketed.

QuoteHonestly, why aren't you attacking them? Because no friggen Unity beginner can do any of that.

I beg to differ. In Unity it's very easy to get good looking scenes using the built in tools and post processing effects. Sure it has many advanced features for "professionals" but it's way easier to make a scene look good without writing shaders than it is with AGK's built in commands. The very basics of Unity are easy to pick up.

QuoteHope the point came across, even if it sounded harsh. Sorry for that, haha.

I get exactly what you are saying but I just had questions about the scene. If you don't ask, you won't know. Don't go all shader snob on me :P

QuoteYes they all show stuff that can be done, not what will be done by the beginner level users.

I know that but let's take the market AGK is aimed at.. Here's what the website says :

AppGameKit is an easy to learn game development engine, ideal for Beginners, Hobbyists & Indie developers.
Now anyone can quickly code and build apps for multiple platforms using AppGameKit's Scripting system. With just a few commands you can have demos and games up and running on mobile devices.

So a new users reads that and see's the presentation video and gets to work on creating a very simple 3d scene. They soon realise that the commands built in to AGK just can not do anything even close to the presentation video, no where near it. On further investigation they realise that they need an advanced level of shader knowledge to which goes directly against the bumf that TGC use to sell AGK in the first place.

Hence my gripe at TGC using a shader driven example to promote "an easy to learn game development engine, ideal for Beginners, Hobbyists & Indie developers."

I'm not griping at you so please don't think I am :)

Haha, I like discussions like this :)
I know what you mean and I don't fully disagree. The website sells it as beginner tool.
I just don't agree it's fake advertising or such.
Demos like this are normal and every engine does it. And more extremely than AGK.
They show what the engine can do if you put the effort in. That should be clear to everyone.

And I will stick to what I said about new people recreating the demos, what Unity shows in their demos is harder to attain for a new user than the things shown in the AGK vid are for a new AGK user.
Yes the Unity user will have a big headstart up to mid quality, totally agree to that, but then he faceplants hard and has no chance whatsoever to reproduce the advanced demo stuff. So the headstart is irrelevant, he never gets to the goal.
The AGK user just needs to figure out a few custom shaders. Quite easy stuff actually. Yeah takes effort, but doable.
In any case we don't know what will be added to Studio yet or what some of the oldschool users will make available. Their forum has some talk about a shader editor for instance. We will have to wait and see what that guy means with it.

Scene stuff: Yes the double geometry only gets sent once, but that has no impact on what you can do with it. Generally, I keep objects separated. Honestly, if the scene is somewhat optimized with render state changes in mind, I don't see the need to do anything more "extreme" that would interfere with what you can do at runtime. So far I didn't run into geometry based slowpokeness in AGK. And I often have hundreds of thousands of polies on screen including the particles. In that regard the engine is pretty solid.
Lighting wise it's a combo. It does use precomputed lighting, but I set it up so that direct light is separate, so you could move some objects around and correctly mix their realtime shadows with the precomputed ones. It's kinda like Unity's dual lightmaps. (I think that's what they call it) Pretty standard stuff, I like keeping it simple.

And just for the record, I will go shader snob on everyone  >:D
It's 2019. Get with the program!

QuoteAnd I will stick to what I said about new people recreating the demos, what Unity shows in their demos is harder to attain for a new user

Unity's high end demo's are so pushing the limits that they don't even work for many users who download them and try to run them on Unity. I've even read some people report that it's taken 2+ hours just to import the scene before getting a zillion errors.

I will be sticking to my guns on this one though as advertising a BASIC simple to use language while demonstrating a more advanced shader output is to me a little underhanded.

None of this is aimed at you directly. Your work is outstanding and very impressive indeed.

QuoteAnd just for the record, I will go shader snob on everyone  >:D
It's 2019. Get with the program!

I'm old school ;D

..i was beginner for both, Unity and AGK..in Unity i was able to get things loaded, up and running in matter of minutes with visuals which surpassing AGK by magnitude of 10 for same assets given (i have been gentle here)..

..in AGK, you CANT load lightmap by use of their own command set, with 3D files they support natively..only demo which shows lightmap use is example with OBJ format which doesnt even support 2nd UV map channel, while it cant load lightmap  and attach it to file format which supports 2 UV map channels (B3D, X)..

So, dont get me wrong, i like AGK so its fine, but Qube is right on the spot here when we talk about false advertising...built in command set doesnt allow straight forward use of already built in commands, so stunning visuals presented by your very work are far away from anything AGK claims to be 'straightforward' and and beginner friendly..visuals exposed and AGK beginner friendly attitude is simply not  truth..

Quote from: Qube on March 03, 2019, 02:32:57
None of this is aimed at you directly.

I didn't think it was. I understand how you mean it and it's a valid point to make and discuss.
I want AGK to get there and be easier to use for beginners who want higher quality rendering. Maybe some rendering/shader tutorials could be fun to make.

Quote from: Qube on March 03, 2019, 02:32:57

QuoteAnd just for the record, I will go shader snob on everyone  >:D
It's 2019. Get with the program!

I'm old school ;D

Fair enough :)

QuoteI want AGK to get there and be easier to use for beginners who want higher quality rendering. Maybe some rendering/shader tutorials could be fun to make.

Me too. I love coding in AGK and the visuals you've created are the best I've seen from AGK. I hope that TGC does a follow up video showing what can be created with the inbuilt commands, something produced professionally both 2D and 3D. Then highlight the advanced power of AGK's shader ability with your example.

I agree that a tutorial on the techniques used to create the presentation could be huge for AGK. If it could be done in such a way to remove the mystique around shaders while also showing how easy they are to integrate into AGK then I think that could only be great for AGK. I'm pretty sure there would be a big audience interested in learning more about shaders and applying them in AGK.

Talking of such things... Are TGC planning to provide the source for the presentation in later versions of AGK Studio?. I was thinking that if you could take that and document each part with separate examples then that would be a great learning tutorial.

This is why I prefer to watch/read "tutorials": they show what can be achieved and you see "it get's created semi-live".
(sometimes they use premade assets but you are able to identify this while watching a tutorial - rather than a simple demo video).

In 3D (blender tutorials) you most often see the whole creation process and are able to "follow".


I assume a "how I created this scenes" by GaborD would be way longer than 1-2 hours (no timelapse) :-)
As said by others: with other toolsets you can create pretty looking stuff without much "indepth knowledge". This is something amateurs/beginners/... want to have. The ability to fine grain everything, to directly command/reroute the graphics render pipeline - is something required in a later or more sophisticated projects. And with bigger projects you will or at least might reach other limits of the agk package (collaboration, 3rd party integration, ... and surely other stuff).


@ what's presented
Think people are aware of that the shown stuff is not achieveable in hours by a beginner. If you watched a pixar movie you do not think that by just using "RenderMan" (or so) will transform your first created 3D cube into a fully fledged and cute looking 3D character.

People want to see that they could more or less easily create "standard" effects. They model a 3D ship and want to append a particle effect to the engines for a cool fuse-burns-fuel-effect ("thrust"). They want to drop in a box, set it to "explode" and it adds an explosion effect (configurable in a way to make it look more unique rather than using a simple preset all other games use too). They want the game to use "anti alias" if they desire. Want to have shadows and automatic global illumination (if desired) so stuff looks more cool. Lights must be just a simple to use thing: place it there, configure light type (sun, "lamp", ...) and it works.

They do not want to fight with shaders (but it should allow to do so!), they do not want to work with light probes (but it should be possible to adjust stuff). Beginner projects want to "toy around" with stuff - not to know everything of it just to create eg. a pong clone with a glowing fireball which enlights the whole scenery and emits particles when getting hit by the paddle.


GaborDs video shows what _could_ be done - but to sell stuff I think showing off "little prototype games" helps way more to sell your stuff to "beginners" than just presenting sophisticated stuff. Or - as said - tutorials (or tutorials about these little prototype games).


bye
Ron

QuoteIf you watched a pixar movie you do not think that by just using "RenderMan" (or so) will transform your first created 3D cube into a fully fledged and cute looking 3D character.

I downloaded RenderMan but couldn't find the "Pixar Render" button to make my stick man model look like a highly detailed AAA game model. Soooo false advertising ;D

QuoteThink people are aware of that the shown stuff is not achieveable in hours by a beginner.

That is true but in this case even someone with 10,000+ hours of experience of AGK could not produce the same results as the results are overall nothing to do with AGK's built in commands.

QuoteGaborDs video shows what _could_ be done

Most definitely. It's a superb example of what AGK's engine / shader ability can create. It's a fantastic example and GaborD has done a spectacular job with it and should be highly commended on what he has done. My gripe is with how TGC are promoting AGK Studio and not the excellent work of GaborD. I just feel that showing something that the built in commands alone can not produce is a bad move.

First thing I'd seen in Unity was the 'Adam-demo' (https://unity3d.com/pages/adam), which looked pretty stunning to me.

Nevertheless, there was no where, never ever a playable version of that for was a high-end rendered video.

When using the Adam 3d model assets in a simple environment my laptop came to a near standstill, even without textures attached. Heck, in the very basic example that came with Unity, I couldn't even drive an untextured car around due to excessive lagging! lol
Unity is a beast, but for higher-end segment, plus I hate the OOP coding env.


GameGuru has some nice game demo's, which also make my PC crawl, but at least it was able to move round with textures on it, so you know it is possible to do it on the right gaming hardware and also if you keep it more simple and modest in AGK itself you *will* be able to create a nice game and let users set their desired level of gfx sophistication according to the power of their machine.


So uh, yeah. The only solution to take away this 'false advertisement' cloud is for AGK is to also include some high-end coding examples to actually show people what all you'd have to be doing in order to achieve(or even approach) similar effects as in GaborD's demo and add to that the bare minimum specs required to actually be able to run it too. They have to make clear that this is feasible for high-end machines only.


I think at least if they show his vid as a promo, they should include his demo code so new customers won't feel like: "Wt*, where is this marvel I've bought it for? I only see simple examples.. Have I been scammed?"

[EDIT]
Unity shows off first with render videos, but they also show a neat project like this:
FPS Example (https://unity.com/fps-sample?_ga=2.112581836.957911283.1551625811-1607320147.1454706143)
I think AGK should invest into including something similar, but hey the physics engine isn't even complete and there are no spotlights so that makes it bit more difficult I guess.

Quote from: Qube on March 03, 2019, 08:26:18

QuoteThink people are aware of that the shown stuff is not achieveable in hours by a beginner.

That is true but in this case even someone with 10,000+ hours of experience of AGK could not produce the same results as the results are overall nothing to do with AGK's built in commands.

I just feel that showing something that the built in commands alone can not produce is a bad move.

I disagree. :) (Surprise!)
Anyone who has worked with 3D for a bit can make the tech for a demo like that. I only used very basic things on the technical side.
Someone with 10,000 hours of 3D experience should easily be able to do it in their sleep.
If someone personally chose to only do simple 2D for 10K hours in AGK and willingly ignored all of the 3D stuff, that's on them, they are not a valid point in the discussion.


Precomped lighting quality, model complexity (while keeping it optimized for realtime), texturing, overall style, etc are on the artwork side and unrelated to what AGK can or can't do. You have to keep the two separate. Demos like these are 90% art driven.

Saying "it looks like this because of shaders" or implying shaders (or whatever other tech gizmo) make all the dfference is a huge insult to artists and tech-artists working on such demos. You are completely devaluing their work just to make a point in a semi-related tech/marketing discussion.
I could remake the outdoor thing without shaders, 80% of the people wouldn't see a bloody difference.

A decent designer/artist/tech-artist with experience in game dev can pick up AGK and make something of high quality quite quickly even if relatively unexperienced as programmer.
If shaders are beyond their programming skill, they will be smart enough to pick an art style that works best without and still produce high quality output. That's part of being decent at what they do.

The whole "demo shouldn't show what newbies can't instantly do" only makes sense if you want demos to only use newbie art. Because the art is the key, not the shaders or the tech. Uh oh, poor marketing guys.


And LoadShader IS a built in command!  :P
Thus by extension shaders are built in.
(haha sorry, had to)

Like I said, I agree that currently it seems like a bit of a mismatch with the site, but I hope and think AGK Studio will raise the bar for non-experienced users along the way and the issue goes away. I am all for that.
If not, users will have to maybe help out and make addons and tuts. If AGK succeeds, it's good for all of us.

Quote from: Rick Nasher on March 03, 2019, 15:35:19
So uh, yeah. The only solution to take away this 'false advertisement' cloud is for AGK is to also include some high-end coding examples to actually show people what all you'd have to be doing in order to achieve(or even approach) similar effects as in GaborD's demo and add to that the bare minimum specs required to actually be able to run it too. They have to make clear that this is feasible for high-end machines only.

I agree higher end examples would be a good addition. That helps everyone, newbie, mid tier or experienced, there is always more to learn.
And beginners could get a feel for which direction to head if they want similar results.
I would like to see a featured user store. More budget for additions for them through their cut, some business for higher level users, help for new people. Win-win-win.

Hey hey, my stuff is not just for high end lol. Runs just fine on my midrange crapola.  :))

Quote from: Rick Nasher on March 03, 2019, 15:35:19
Unity shows off first with render videos, but they also show a neat project like this:
FPS Example (https://unity.com/fps-sample?_ga=2.112581836.957911283.1551625811-1607320147.1454706143)
I think AGK should invest into including something similar, but hey the physics engine isn't even complete and there are no spotlights so that makes it bit more difficult I guess.

Some of the Unity examples are great. Good place to learn and they are usually great quality.
But they also have millions of budget and a team of 12 or so just for making demos.
Something like the Adam or Blacksmith demos must cost a fortune, but they do get good mileage out of them by later sharing the project files.

QuoteI disagree. :) (Surprise!)
Anyone who has worked with 3D for a bit can make the tech for a demo like that. I only used very basic things on the technical side.
Someone with 10,000 hours of 3D experience should easily be able to do it in their sleep.
If someone personally chose to only do simple 2D for 10K hours in AGK and willingly ignored all of the 3D stuff, that's on them, they are not a valid point in the discussion.

Totally wrong because someone with 10,000+ hours of experience with AGK can not produce that kind of output unless they know shaders.

QuoteSaying "it looks like this because of shaders" or implying shaders (or whatever other tech gizmo) make all the dfference is a huge insult to artists and tech-artists working on such demos. You are completely devaluing their work just to make a point in a semi-related tech/marketing discussion.

OK lets put the whole thing into perspective... TGC have shown a tech demo promoting AGK using PBR yet AGK does not even have any commands for PBR without the use of shaders.

That is what I find a bit naughty of them. It would be like showing how fast a BASIC language could do complex simulations only to find out it was all done via the built in assembly support.

I'm not dissing your work at all and have said so many times over.

QuoteI could remake the outdoor thing without shaders, 80% of the people wouldn't see a bloody difference.

I'm more taking about the indoor scene. That could not be done anywhere near that quality using the command set of AGK without shaders?

QuoteThe whole "demo shouldn't show what newbies can't instantly do" only makes sense if you want demos to only use newbie art. Because the art is the key, not the shaders or the tech. Uh oh, poor marketing guys.

The demo should show what the language can do. That's my point. I agree the best art work should be used. However, the PBR, the shadows and the lighting, all of that are not part of AGK's commands.

I know you'll disagree with me until the end of the world but I really do think it's unfair to tech demo something that the can't be done with the built in commands. Especially when it's sold as "AppGameKit is an easy to learn game development engine, ideal for Beginners, Hobbyists & Indie developers." and shaders are not easy to learn for beginners but AGK is!

QuoteAnd LoadShader IS a built in command!  :P

OK, you win ;D - I guess the next demo showing "AppGameKit's Scripting system" will be shader driven and all the grunt work required by the CPU will be via a plugin written in C++ but that's OK because AGK has commands for that too :P

QuoteLike I said, I agree that currently it seems like a bit of a mismatch with the site, but I hope and think AGK Studio will raise the bar for non-experienced users along the way and the issue goes away. I am all for that.
If not, users will have to maybe help out and make addons and tuts. If AGK succeeds, it's good for all of us.

Yes, I hope AGK does bring support for PBR with better shadows and lighting via native commands. There is no reason at all not to make that side easier for beginners to match with the other commands. Granted even creating quality PBR textures is no quick easy task but I bet many many customers would be pissed to buy AGK based on that presentation video only to realise that it doesn't even have support for that kind of output without resorting to shaders. They should have said on the ver first screen "here's a demo showing the power of AGK's shaders".

Sure, Unity and Unreal also push out the most crazy high end demos with AAA art created by teams + full on shaders pushing things to the limits but at the same time they say how the demo was made. TGC on  the other hand have given the impression that the new AGK Studio has a massive graphical leap over AGK Classic and using it's easy to learn scripting language can produce these results. Shady marketing :P

> They should have said on the ver first screen "here's a demo showing the power of AGK's shaders".

It's not AGK's shader - they are GaborD's shader. So there is no LoadShader("agk_ambientocclusion.glsl") (or similar).

They should provide basic shaders for a "acceptable good looking and well performing" look. People could use them - or create derivates of it (aka "customize").


@ GaborD
Hope the developers look over your shoulder and get a grasp on how your workflow is - and if your workflow was a kind of "widely accepted way of doing" then adopt this style and prepare their tools to incorporate with the workflow. Get rid of nasty needed file conversions, allow IDE-based adjustments here and there.

Just think of the hassle you had with some languages to get the output binary to the device ... IDEs need to handle deployment for you especially if there is no other way to "test locally".

Convenience is the key - and if it tackles your workflow it will cut development times.


bye
Ron

Quote from: Derron on March 03, 2019, 19:48:25
It's not AGK's shader - they are GaborD's shader. So there is no LoadShader("agk_ambientocclusion.glsl") (or similar).

Stop being pedantic, you know exactly what I meant :)

It's not being pedantic. I think they should not write "done with AGK Studio" (or so) but clearly state that this is a test project by GaborD, done in AGK studio. Yes, they would introduce another name instead of just their own - but it would clearly state that this is
a) external (not "official" but so cool that they made their users aware of it)
b) done / compiled / interpreted by AGK studio

Exception is, if GaborD is kind of an official team member, then they of course do not need to state that.

Else I see no problem in promoting their software that way. People should know that "official promo videos" are in almost every case sophisticated. I mean, even videos of "animator" software will contain sprites most of the users are not able to draw - and as said by GaborD already, the assets make the look of the video/presentation.

Think it should act as a kind of "eye catcher" and it surely does. Once attracted the potential customers could have a look what the engine offers, might even look for other stuff done with AGK studio - and then see if it fits or not.


bye
Ron

QuoteIt's not being pedantic.

Yes you are! you know exactly what I meant.

Nope I was not sure if you knew what you wrote there - as you are as stubborn as me  :-* and want to defend your opinion. This does cloud your vision in this case.

If they stated that
> They should have said on the ver first screen "here's a demo showing the power of AGK's shaders"
they would lie - as it are not their shaders but his shaders. It is their engine allowing the setup of shaders. But I interpret "shaders" as "shader sourcecode" not "shader support". Dunno if you meant the latter one.
So I "corrected" your statement as this would be what they have to write if they wanted to - but of course they'd better write something like "* scene uses custom shaders not included in AGK studio" or so.


bye
Ron

Quote> They should have said on the ver first screen "here's a demo showing the power of AGK's shaders"
they would lie - as it are not their shaders but his shaders.

What I meant by that is TGC should have had a footnote at the beginning of the video saying something like "via the power of AGK's shader ability." - Something / anything to make it more clear to viewers that AGK Studio's built in commands alone are not responsible for that kind of output. The impression it gives is that AGK Studio is a massive leap from AGK Classic and here's what only AGK Studio can do.

That's my point and not about the excellent work of GaborD.

Anyway, I'm boring myself now :P

Maybe you should keep your thingers on the keyboard - but switch back to the coding editor ;-)


bye
Ron

Quote from: Qube on March 03, 2019, 20:37:01
What I meant by that is TGC should have had a footnote at the beginning of the video saying something like "via the power of AGK's shader ability." - Something / anything to make it more clear to viewers that AGK Studio's built in commands alone are not responsible for that kind of output. The impression it gives is that AGK Studio is a massive leap from AGK Classic and here's what only AGK Studio can do.

Hey, I agree to that! Tadaa!
A quick note like that would have made things clearer to people.

Quote from: Derron on March 03, 2019, 20:40:29
Maybe you should keep your thingers on the keyboard - but switch back to the coding editor ;-)

Yes, more coding and less opinions :P

Quote from: GaborD on March 03, 2019, 20:48:39
Hey, I agree to that! Tadaa!
A quick note like that would have made things clearer to people.

\o/

Quick vid of the last scene, because the full version wasn't shown.
Excuse the few unclean areas, I didn't have time to finish it up.
Done with this boring-ish stuff for now, focussing on something fun next. Want to try some bigger things this year, all rendering demoed out for now lol.



I really like the power I get from AGK. Basically like the old NB days.

Yes the good old NB days.....but i remember that you make years ago a demo video for NB with the Unity engine...!
A switch from the scene to the code editor make things clearer ;)

Very impressive - I bet the media folder for this project is pretty big? :o

Quote from: c0d3r9 on March 04, 2019, 20:24:11
Yes the good old NB days.....but i remember that you make years ago a demo video für NB with the Unity engine...!
A switch from the scene to the code editor make things clearer ;)

Ooh yeah, I remember. I know which one you mean. It was a voxel lighting test in Unity that was a showcase for GPU based pathtracing for lightmapping.
I actually posted that in a Unity related forum community.
Had nothing to do with NB other than that I planned to port it over later for that editor addon thing Matt wanted to make.
Never got to finish it due to the whole madness that happened with NB. Matt decided to do the editor himself anyway.
I have no control over what other people do with images/vids I post or send them. Insult them, not me. I had nothing to do with their website.
Now you know the actual story. :)

OK, I have to ask, why wouldn't this be AGK? What's your point here? 
Seriously, if it was running in Crapbuster2000, I would say it is Crapbuster2000. I don't care either way. But it's not. It's AGK Studio. AGK can do it without breaking a sweat.

Quote from: Qube on March 04, 2019, 21:01:32
Very impressive - I bet the media folder for this project is pretty big? :o

8)

The texture folder is not exactly small haha. But it all fits into VMem with some room to spare, so that's fine.
I could lower a lot of tex resolutions without real visible impact, but I wanted to be able to do extreme closeups. It's a good stress test for the engine. :)

QuoteI could lower a lot of tex resolutions without real visible impact, but I wanted to be able to do extreme closeups. It's a good stress test for the engine. :)

Nah, for things like this you would always use the best quality you can.

QuoteI have no control over what other people do with images/vids I post or send them.

So a video you made with Unity was taken by someone else and stated as made with NB? :o cheeky little buggers!

@GaborD: No, you misunderstood me.
Some years ago you wrote to me in a pm that you made the vids for matt to represent nb.
Not any other person.

I only would say that it coul be better if people can see in such a vid the editor behind such a beautiful scene.

If you play a game and look into the intro in most case its no real time rendering.Its created with something else.
It made things clearer if interested user can see the editor behind that creation.
But I did not want to cause a fight here either.So long....

Quote from: c0d3r9 on March 04, 2019, 22:44:13
@GaborD: No, you misunderstood me.
Some years ago you wrote to me in a pm that you made the vids for matt to represent nb.
Not any other person.

I only would say that it coul be better if people can see in such a vid the editor behind such a beautiful scene.

If you play a game and look into the intro in most case its no real time rendering.Its created with something else.
It made things clearer if interested user can see the editor behind that creation.
But I did not want to cause a fight here either.So long....

I let the NB gang use screens and vids I made as promo materials, just like I would for any engine I use.
You are correct that the first vid was originally a Unity test. It was used as my internal system demo to show what I can do for the addon. A proof of concept basically. Later I had similar ones that were directly in NB, the basic system worked. A shame I could never finish it, but the addon went in a different direction with realtime lighting (which is fair enough, their choice) and I was out. I actually liked that approach of lightmap generation.
So in that way, you are right, it was a promo for NB and to show what's coming. But I can't remember specifics of which vid I talked about when, it's just too long ago.
My point is I never wanted that first one released. If it got misused, misrepresented or if I wrote you something that was unclear or misleading under those circumstances, I am truly sorry. Not my intention.
In any case, I know there was a lot of madness going on in the late NB days, but the forum crew wasn't involved at that point. We all suffered, I lost hundreds of dollars.
I do get your point and wish the promised things would have been finished. I loved NB and am sad it got tarnished in the end. Was a bad time, and I am still angry for some of the stuff that happened. Really sorry if you got burned too.


A vid with editor will be available soon, you are completely right it would be useful. Several people think it's fake it seems. Not sure why, because this is pretty basic stuff and mainly art driven. 
I can assure you it's not some offline render or such trickery. Don't underestimate the power of AGK. It's a pretty solid engine, similar to NB's raw power. That power is a bit hidden ofcourse, because the stock rendering is pretty oldschool, but hopefully that will be addressed with Studio.

Some outdoor shots, for fun.
I know it's messy, the scene was basically done overnight so that it can be in the official vid. The lighting is subpar due to the time constraints. Will maybe one day clean it up. Then again.. I'd rather make something new and fun.
Hope it's OK that I post so many shots here in the forums. If it's too annoying just holler.

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FJPGJzEnh.jpg&hash=42c2de0c1f80f51f784e00eed54ce0c5de8bfd8d) (https://imgur.com/JPGJzEn)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FDsRhEpnh.jpg&hash=75589d608b7f62e0cea4598910c8c2e567e2ed8f) (https://imgur.com/DsRhEpn)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOyYhlmrh.jpg&hash=54f2506c71ef7fd568b41d496f92d4fab1a18e25) (https://imgur.com/OyYhlmr)

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FjuuWvaMh.jpg&hash=e002239ea17e05e0886331066905ca9e9bceb705) (https://imgur.com/juuWvaM)

What happened to the lighting in the outdoor scene?. The outdoor scene looks great, just a little washed out which I assume is because of the lighting?.

There, I've fixed your scene for you ;D :P

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/images/gdpbr001.jpg)

The development team fell down after Gabor's input.

I'm with Qube on this, without Gabor's major talent the 3D side of AGK is poor.  Fantastic for 2D if you don't mind non OOP, and it's actually quite refreshing to be able to knock-up a 2D prototype very quickly in this way - it makes coding fun!  Which is what we all really want I guess, it certainly re-ignited my love with game coding.

As for 3D, AGK is half finished.  The saving grace is that the renderer has no restrictions (unlike some) so Gabor can use an easy to use language and plug-in his expertise without the system getting in his way, just like NB did.

Gotta be fair, AGK simply wasn't focussed on high end 3D. They don't have Unity's or Epic's budget, they had to pick their battles.
I think they did the exactly right thing, making the core functionality strong but flexible and focussing on 2D, which is what their core audience uses most.
We will see what they come up with for Studio. I hope something cool. We don't know yet.

In the end, the pizzazz in 3D is just that. It's show.  I mean, I love it, showoffy 3D is right up my alley.  :))
But it's just a bit of eyecandy sprinkled on top. I am not great at anything, my only skill is figuring out how to leverage an engine's functionality to make stuff look like I want it to look. The heavy lifting is still done in the core engine and in asset creation.

For now, I agree, it's like NB. I actually see AGK ahead of NB. The rendertex system is more straightforward and flexible. To me, AGK being like NB2 is the best thing ever.
We will see how far they evolve it.
Just remember, giving people some shaders doesn't change a thing. You have to go all in for real out of the box PBR and high quality rendering. Scene editor, probe system, premade material and lighting systems, a flexible but powerful post chain, etc.
That's a significant investment.

Quote from: Qube on March 05, 2019, 18:35:32
There, I've fixed your scene for you ;D :P

;D

But.. but.. it was for a moody RPG!
The scene is OBVIOUSLY right after the player's companion dog Brakkher died to a Plasma Bolt attack (+500 damage against dogs) by a lieutenant spectral minion of Blöaargh.
It clearly shows the desperation and the sadness that the player carries around until 35 minutes later in the story, when he meets Chompwomp the sarcastic rabbit who becomes his new companion and helps him defeat Blöaargh's army with his vicious Double-Tooth-Bite (+%15 crit chance) attacks.
But yes, something is off, it should probably rain in that scene to complete the picture. That's why people misunderstood it. *nods knowingly*
*adjusts pretentious beige designer scarf* *nods knowingly again*



Nah, OK... you win. :)

QuoteBut yes, something is off, it should probably rain in that scene to complete the picture. That's why people misunderstood it.

I think that'd finish off the scene pretty well :)

As a very basic I think AGK should improve the shadows, lighting and also improve 3D file format support as it's not easy to bring in models / textures and animations. It's a bit hit and miss if it'll even work or display properly. It's very picky.

It'd also be silly for them to try and compete with Unity / Unreal but they could offer something similar to Unity's Post Processing Effects. Even have some default common shaders to apply to objects like glow, wireframe, cartoon, water, dissolve, etc. I know they sell a separate DLC shader pack but it's not as simple as it should / could be.

Shaders are not a magic fix but I do think AGK should have a bunch of more common ones included and supported with simple examples for new users to easily understand.

One day I'm still holding out for a native compiler but I can still dream for that one ;D

@Qube

Haha yep, I typed it as joke, then I was like... Hmmm, actually that would fit really well.

Really good feature/addition list.

Spotlights, HDR and soft shadows are definitely par of the course nowadays, totally agree.

Yeah the 3D formats can be tricky, noticed that too. Hope they get sorted.
I am now sticking to FBX, that seems to work great, keeps the positions/rotation/scale from Blender and allows to store tangent space so that you always have the correct binormals/tangents in custom shaders.
Downside is that I think FBX can't be used for HTML5 targeted exports. I had issues when testing that.

And a definite yes to a basic included shader assortment.
We need to get people to accept shaders as part of the basic package and not as some weird external mysterium.
That would be a good step forward.

Native compiler :) Hopefully one day.

Had some free time... added Buffoon Mode!
This is for people with not a lick of common sense. Those people who think "But if 4K is totally taxing on my midrange rig, what if I render at 8K?"
Now I know. 4x supersampling is the thing to do. It's slow as heck (150ish FPS, so basically still more than enough for a non superfast-action game) but looks really crisp (no muddyness from post-AA) and pretty clean in movement, almost no flickering, even on those super thin reflective edges.
Image is full 1080p, enlarge for details. Taken with post antialiasing off. Don't need it with this much supersampling.  :))
Also supports 2x and 3x supersampling, for the not totally crazy approach.
Still need to clean things up a bit, but it's pretty solid.
Now I want to add 8x supersampling, just for kicks.. I wonder if I can even create 16k wide buffers on my card. One way to find out I guess...

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEnAqRUeh.jpg&hash=5058f7ee9bef49fd632288f40cd79b2a5bd17137) (https://imgur.com/EnAqRUe)


Edit:
Ha!, it seems to work. 8x supersampling.
This is what marketing departments would call "cinematic experience": 40ish FPS. Not too shabby actually for this heavy scene.

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fp5b06Woh.jpg&hash=5c5c51a6721a6e631626a09311a854f41b4f7058) (https://imgur.com/p5b06Wo)

QuoteHa!, it seems to work. 8x supersampling.
This is what marketing departments would call "cinematic experience": 40ish FPS. Not too shabby actually for this heavy scene.

But it's sucked the life out of the FPS :P - Nothing beats a good old stress test from "I'm wonder what if?" ;D

QuoteA vid with editor will be available soon, you are completely right it would be useful. Several people think it's fake it seems. Not sure why, because this is pretty basic stuff and mainly art driven.

I've seen the "fake! fake! fake!" posts at other places.

Hmm, not sure that having the editor in the background would quell the rebellion either. I say the only real solution is for TGC to release the source with AGK Studio, just like Unity / Unreal do. I think users are going to have to be able to run it from AGK Studio themselves in order to believe it.

Not sure what the plans are but if your outstanding work is to remain just a video then you'll never win and you'll always have disbelievers. The only way is for AGK Studio users to be able to run the demo themselves from the IDE and then I'd say you'll be owed a lot of personal apologies.

Personally I think you cheated and did it all on an Amiga 1200 \o/ go Amiga ;D

Quote from: Qube on March 06, 2019, 03:35:00
Nothing beats a good old stress test from "I'm wonder what if?" ;D

We think alike. ;D

Quote from: Qube on March 06, 2019, 03:35:00
I've seen the "fake! fake! fake!" posts at other places.

Hmm, not sure that having the editor in the background would quell the rebellion either. I say the only real solution is for TGC to release the source with AGK Studio, just like Unity / Unreal do. I think users are going to have to be able to run it from AGK Studio themselves in order to believe it.

Not sure what the plans are but if your outstanding work is to remain just a video then you'll never win and you'll always have disbelievers. The only way is for AGK Studio users to be able to run the demo themselves from the IDE and then I'd say you'll be owed a lot of personal apologies.

Personally I think you cheated and did it all on an Amiga 1200 \o/ go Amiga ;D

Yes true, one could easily fake the editor with video editing. Not sure what would be the real thing that creates the 3D part though. 3D Rendering it in Blender or other 3D apps would prolly take quite a few days. There is a several minute long video on Youtube afterall, fullHD at 60FPS. Great fun rendering that noise free. 
What an elaborate hoax... blocking the computer for days with an endless render to troll some random forum users I don't even know on a forum I barely ever post on. Maybe I am just too old to get it, but what would even be the point? :) None of those guys can tell me that I bet.
I am not even promoting or selling anything at the moment. Didn't ask anyone for money. Didn't even talk to anyone about it. This is so weird hahaha.

Just wanted to have some fun with some screenshots to motivate folks and help a product I really like.  :))


Shhh about the Amiga! Don't spill my secrets!  :P

Managed to find a good compromise that would be game usable.
OK I am happy now. Back to real work lol.

(https://www.syntaxbomb.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGBNh3sxh.jpg&hash=6a212f120eb66e830499e75e470b9d30486b32d3) (https://imgur.com/GBNh3sx)

Fantastic work, and when an engine 'gets out of the way' then those with a 3D talent can excel.

But I have to say the 'Dark BASIC' people have always produced flakey (buggy) software.  Gabor does well because he largely ignores the many flaws, by writing his own routines.  NB (Nuclear BASIC) was far better, because it was very stable.

NB and NF (using C++) were the best systems I've ever used; so gutted when Matthew abandoned them.  It was a fantastic product that ran like lightening on even a slow system.

Quote from: Steve Elliott on March 09, 2019, 00:03:28
Fantastic work, and when an engine 'gets out of the way' then those with a 3D talent can excel.

But I have to say the 'Dark BASIC' people have always produced flakey (buggy) software.  Gabor does well because he largely ignores the many flaws, by writing his own routines.  NB (Nuclear BASIC) was far better, because it was very stable.

NB and NF (using C++) were the best systems I've ever used; so gutted when Matthew abandoned them.  It was a fantastic product that ran like lightening on even a slow system.

+1 for NF..best thing i ever used by now..very stable and very very fast..

NF was awesome.

Quote from: Steve Elliott on March 09, 2019, 00:03:28
so gutted when Matthew abandoned them.  It was a fantastic product that ran like lightening on even a slow system.

Yep agree. Was such a shame.
The whole "pay once get updates forever" payment model is so silly, it couldn't end well I guess.
An engine needs a longterm payment model in my opinion, you are never finished.

Quote
Yep agree. Was such a shame.

The whole "pay once get updates forever" payment model is so silly, it couldn't end well I guess.
An engine needs a longterm payment model in my opinion, you are never finished.

It's business suicide.

QuoteThe whole "pay once get updates forever" payment model is so silly, it couldn't end well I guess.
An engine needs a longterm payment model in my opinion, you are never finished.

Yup, it's a really silly business model that never works without a continued new fresh audience to which is impossible to sustain. It sounds great for the consumer but it's not great for any developer that relies on that product to finance a living! - Companies are obsessed with growth and new customers while constantly ignoring their core dedicated willing to pay customers.

The best method for income I've seen is you buy a product and get 12 months worth of updates. After 12 months you can still use the software forever but you can no longer update to the latest version without a further 12 months upgrade subscription which is cheaper than the initial purchase price. This I find is a great way for sustained income for the developer and also allows a customer choice.

Well Matthew (and all of us NB users with him) learned that lesson the hard way.  :))

Yeah, agree Qube, I like the 12 month updates model. Best of both worlds.

Cor!, Me and GarborD posted at exactly the same time :o - This has to be a sign?... Checks lotto ticket, won £5.40, nope, that's not the sign I'm looking for.

Nuclear BASIC... I never used it. Wasn't there something dodgy about the author? or am I mixing up stories?

Maybe the timestamp is 3 of the lotto numbers for tonight! We just need 3 more...

Nah, don't think you are mixing it up. Most people seemed angry because they didn't fully get what they payed for, like it happened so often with small engines that got abandoned.
I got way more fun out of it than I payed for, so for me it was OK in that regard, but I have other issues with some of the stuff that happened.
But hey... I usually don't hold grudges for long. Was a learning experience.

QuoteMaybe the timestamp is 3 of the lotto numbers for tonight! We just need 3 more...

Lol, I have my lotto ticket for tonight but will buy one with the numbers 1, 48, 21. I'll use other stats to fill in the rest. If I win millions I'll let you know ;D

QuoteNah, don't think you are mixing it up.

I thought there was something on the criminal level? to which I think I've go my wires crossed. Think I need to research about this and what I'm thinking about :P

Haha nah, I heard nothing of that sort.

Quote from: GaborD on March 09, 2019, 03:29:56
Haha nah, I heard nothing of that sort.

Yeah, It's probably nothing to do with this but I do remember something in the blitz related community with someone getting arrested and going to jail. Can't quite remember where it all links in though :P

..back then, Matt himself stated that he will have to leave country..why?? I have no idea..regarding pay once fee and get updates forever, well, i think NB/NF community back then, actually, suggested to be charged per update and for some reason Matt never did it...shame really..it is only piece of software i feel sorry to see fading away as it literally worked on any toaster you could imagine and worked really fast..

Totally agree with NA, the one great piece of software for indies that was far superior to anything then and now.

I don't think he even realized how good his product was.
He could have set it up as a long term decent income project, up to even now.
The DX11 update was half done, with that finished it would have been so far ahead of any competitor in the B3D style engine area. You could already do things like tesselation and whatnot in those old versions, imagine where it could be now.

Interesting. Another creator of a programming language who went to jail.

Maybe Mark Sibly should have, the money he conned people out of in later years.

It's sad how many engines never reach their full potential. If they even get finished.
NB could easily be alive and profitable if managed accordingly, C3D could have been a winner (but I may be biased on that one lol) and a Blitz3D 2 would surely have been a big success if done right.
Plus the bajeelions of weird little engines that existed and never got to a usable state. I tried so many...
The audience is there. Sure, it's not a Unity sized target audience, but you don't need to rake in many millions if you have a small solid team.

..i did asked for source version of software (NF) since i have payed for almost everything produced by author, plus some more (500USD for some things to be updated in NF, which never happened)..so source request/access was granted, and idea was to share it with community and keep it alive..but site was down before i could have it...crap...

Quote from: Naughty Alien on March 10, 2019, 01:31:44
..i did asked for source version of software (NF) since i have payed for almost everything produced by author, plus some more (500USD for some things to be updated in NF, which never happened)..so source request/access was granted, and idea was to share it with community and keep it alive..but site was down before i could have it...crap...

Yeah that really sucks :( Would have been a really interesting community project. Would have loved that.

I heard from a member in the forum at that time that apparently his house burned down and then the rest of the information was very confusing. And then suddenly it was all over.

Btw. don´t forget Hardwired/Hybrid Lib from Ploppy(RIP). It was a shame that such a enthusiast coder must gone.

Yeah, really miss Ploppy(Richard), his widow handed over the code to a cousin or so, but I guess he didn't know what to do with all that and felt to invasive to ask her for an update on the matter, for she was left alone with kids etc. Felt really sorry for her.  :(

RIP Ploppy.  Lovely guy.

@GaborD
Think it may have been asked before, but I still see some disbelief on the AGK forum(and here), so to satisfy everyone's curiosity for once and for all, can you please state clearly if:

You are willing and/or did offer AGK the source to be released of your demo(or something similar) when they launch the final version of their new AGK Studio product, just as a proof of concept of an high-end, high-skilled example for buyers not to feel cheated upon afterwards?

For it is what is being used in the adds now as an example of what's possible.
Really hope you do/did for otherwise they'll probably loose some customers and it's not in AGK owners interest to see them go bust(for then no more updates/dev work's gonna be done on it).



I won't be able to use any of such stuff on my old beasty(it crawls, can hardly run GameGuru even lol), but I just know there are some high power indie devs out there that would want to see it happening with their own eyes.

Naysayers will be naysayers. :)
All I did was make some screenshots and vids.
If asked about it on their forums I replied honestly, also helped some people with shader stuff. Until they started calling me liar and insulting me, which was when I stopped posting, have better things to do with my life than being angered by such nonsense.
After my current project is done I want to focus back on the lightmapper/worldbuilder, so we will see how far I get in the next months. I definitely want to make an openworld game with it. Once I have something substantial to show I'll post a showcase over there. Prolly gets me insulted again lol, but whatever.

@Rick Nasher, so that'll be a no then :P

QuoteUntil they started calling me liar and insulting me, which was when I stopped posting, have better things to do with my life than being angered by such nonsense.

I think the problem here is that visually AGK has never ever had anything even close to the output shown in the video which is a real testament to your skill. The big issue is that a lot of people just won't believe it until they can run the project from AGK themselves like all the tech demo's in Unity / Unreal. As the project isn't going to be released for people to run themselves and then apologise to you once they see it then there will always be those that don't believe it because there's no proof.

Still think you should do a shader set + examples for AGK Tier 1 and sell it. You could make some good money I reckon :)

My original plan (before Studio was announced) was to make the whole PBR thing an addon for AGK.
The issue is that PBR needs a ton of data generation systems, otherwise almost noone will be able to use it. I have to wait and see what Studio will have stock and build on that.
Just releasing some shaders (or even a whole demo) is pointless if people can't create own stuff without outside programs and in depth PBR knowledge. (how to create HDR lightmaps, probes, etc and get them into AGK for instance)

Quote from: Qube on March 23, 2019, 17:38:26
I think the problem here is that visually AGK has never ever had anything even close to the output shown in the video which is a real testament to your skill. The big issue is that a lot of people just won't believe it until they can run the project from AGK themselves like all the tech demo's in Unity / Unreal. As the project isn't going to be released for people to run themselves and then apologise to you once they see it then there will always be those that don't believe it because there's no proof.

Yeah a big engine like UE/Unity has a huge advantage in that regard, they can release crazy high quality demos/examples with source and media because they have own paid demo teams pumping out the high end stuff. Plus they already have the base engine set up for PBR and high quality post effects anyway.

I have seen some neat stuff done with AGK though, but unfortunately you are right, it is rare.
My guess is that most of the people who focus on higher end 3D moved to UE4, CryEngine or Unity so that's why we don't see much. AGK can do it without breaking a sweat, it does take considerable effort though.
I totally get why someone working on game projects wants to save that effort and rather focus the saved time on content or marketing. If I was working on own indie games for a living I would probably use UE or Unity too, just to lessen the time investment.

They should provide an addon-capability to the IDE - so that the PBR stuff can be "inbuilt".

Said that already some weeks ago.


bye
Ron

@Qube:
Guess not.   :(

@GaborD:
Thanks for at least giving a straight answer: It's a nogo then.
[EDIT] But then this thread should actually have been called: "No Choco Cookies for everyone! ", GaborD.   ;)


It's a real shame people are so rude and in disbelief, simply because some people have better skills then they do and just cannot imagine someone pushing things to the max.

But like Qube said: Unity *does* provide a few of those kind of magic examples and this is what lacks with AGK at the moment I think, so hence my question to reassure people and get AGK some potential customers so doesn't end up like Blitz (R.I.P.).  :'(
Even if people are unable to re-create something like that themselves and don't understand any of it, they have to see it's possible through persistence, knowledge and hard work.


That's why I was busy providing some generic 3d framework(s) with and without physics, plus some network stuff for peeps, but seems I'm always just way too caught up in multitude of things:
Had a time I couldn't, now I can(but I'm slow and not as skilled as you, not even into shaders yet hehehe), and currently my dad's very sick, I've just switched jobs - so lots of homework and relationship is high maintenance to put it very, very, very mildly. :(
It's like there's always something new, grrr.. so tired of all the bs in life. >:(

So was hoping at least someone would be able to show it, but hey: what isn't gonna happen isn't gonna happen. Perhaps Preben can do it then, but he's probably too busy with the IDE and GG-Loader stuff.


Lets hope we don't have to drag AGK to the grave before it's fully matured. For I really don't want to switch to Unity.


[EDIT 2]

QuoteMy original plan (before Studio was announced) was to make the whole PBR thing an addon for AGK.
The issue is that PBR needs a ton of data generation systems, otherwise almost noone will be able to use it. I have to wait and see what Studio will have stock and build on that.
Just releasing some shaders (or even a whole demo) is pointless if people can't create own stuff without outside programs and in depth PBR knowledge. (how to create HDR lightmaps, probes, etc and get them into AGK for instance)

Perhaps you could write a "How To.." manual to go with it? It could sell pretty well if done ok.
From what I understand AGK S will be backwards compatible, so all commands should basically be the same right, just faster and perhaps few more commands/parameters to take advantage of Vulkan's higher speed and improvements?

Or is that a whole different matter when comes to PBR, HDR, probes, shaders and stuff?

QuoteThey should provide an addon-capability to the IDE - so that the PBR stuff can be "inbuilt".

TGC's priority at the moment is the new IDE and then the Vulkan engine. They don't even know themselves what the roadmap is after that. Hopefully they concentrate on fixing bugs and getting all the built in features finished off properly. However I suspect they'll be prioritising new features to get new sales. I just wish they'd take the time out to make the core rock solid but that's not as exciting as swishy new features.

QuoteLets hope we don't have to drag AGK to the grave before it's fully matured. For I really don't want to switch to Unity.

Unity would need to go through some huge efficiencies before I'd even dream os using it for 2D. I do note that their new lightweight and ECS system creates very efficient stuff but from what I can tell that's aimed at mobile and not desktop yet. I can't find a clear answer if the super efficient core is heading to desktop or not.

Quote from: Rick Nasher on March 23, 2019, 18:44:32
Perhaps you could write a "How To.." manual to go with it? It could sell pretty well if done ok.
From what I understand AGK S will be backwards compatible, so all commands should basically be the same right, just faster and perhaps few more commands/parameters to take advantage of Vulkan's higher speed and improvements?

Or is that a whole different matter when comes to PBR, HDR, probes, shaders and stuff?

Yeah that's how I understand it, the main commands should remain the same.
I am not sure what will exactly happen shader side, generally speaking they are very similar to GLSL, shouldn't be an issue.
They know what things would need to be added to make PBR and similar things easier.
Once we have access to the Vulkan engine I will revisit this. But like I said, a lot would have to be added to make it usable for the general userbase.

Quote from: Qube on March 24, 2019, 01:31:37
Unity would need to go through some huge efficiencies before I'd even dream os using it for 2D. I do note that their new lightweight and ECS system creates very efficient stuff but from what I can tell that's aimed at mobile and not desktop yet. I can't find a clear answer if the super efficient core is heading to desktop or not.

Agreed. In my opinion trying to twist an already bloated 3D engine into something that it isn't is the wrong approach.
I would prefer a standalone 2D focussed engine.

Same for specific 3D workflows. Starting with a stripped down lean core like AGK and adding only what the project needs will generally produce much better performance than any jack of all trades solution. Do one thing, but do that well.
I know this is not a viable approach for the big guys who are just fighting over market share percentages and need to reach everyone and their mother and the cat, but that's kinda where small engines can sneak in and shine and steal a small piece of the pie (which to a small team is still big enough).