Learning the hard way - and altering expectations

Started by Matty, August 06, 2020, 04:47:37

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Matty

Greetings.  I'll tell a little story...some of you know this already.

I've been a hobby developer since I was a kid and never had any commercial interests in making my games...until 2015.

The story below deals with things in the past that I've moved on from but I need to tell it to describe the change in my attitude that has occurred.

So in 2015 I started making yet another game that I had planned on being a hobby game.

I showed early video footage of it on a number of forums, my workplace and to friends.

At the time it was rather novel in that it showed off some fairly flashy 3d graphics on a mobile device that wasn't as common at the time.

I had some excitement generated in various groups.  A number of people suggested it had potential for in their eyes considerable money making opportunity.

I'd never been in a position where this was suggested.

A publisher contacted me but we didn't go ahead with their plan.  I contacted artists until eventually one was recommended to me.

Anyway...my experience was a considerable let down when it came to the first six months after release.

After considerable effort I had not made more than 10 sales of which 6 or 7 were people I knew.

Anyway...as time went on I made other games with similar low levels of success.   I was less surprised by it now though.

Moving forward to this year-I made Warlock for the game comp which I felt was my best attempt for a long time.

I also put it on browser game sites that earn advertising revenue.

With my previous experience commercially I didn't expect the Earth but I was still underwhelmed by the financial rewards.  I earned 1 cent in USD from one site in the first month and nothing thereafter.

But I had learned to take it a lot easier.  To accept the difficulty in earning money.  That was a fine.

Since it has been released I've monitored its usage on my website and also for a brief period I experimented with some google ads to get players to mainly help with observing play statistics-eg minutes played by users and return visits.

All of this is very useful.

Useful because it has matured me from the wildly optimistic naive man I was in 2015 thinking I could earn a decent chunk of cash to now, when I get an offer from a small mobile publisher I have the experience to know that at best I'll earn 1 cent from any deal.

It's kind of like several face plants into the concrete floor of reality have prepared me to be able to dismiss offers made to me as mass market emails rather than being taken in and thinking someone wants my game and I could actually earn from it.

It was a massive trap to fall into in 2015 but a good lesson.  Helpful to train me.

The bitterness I felt say in 2016 and 2017 has been replaced with a form of cynicism and acceptance of the massive unlikelihood of earning any degree of cash from games made that I like playing.

Note...none of this seems to apply to developers of games made to suit specific known niches in the casual market so ignore everything I've said if you make card games, match 3 games, hidden object games and such.

blinkok

The best advice i ever received was to think of the market as a big ugly blob.
Just keep throwing stuff at it until it doesn't come back.
- That was from Singo

Derron

QuoteUseful because it has matured me from the wildly optimistic naive man I was in 2015 thinking I could earn a decent chunk of cash to now, when I get an offer from a small mobile publisher I have the experience to know that at best I'll earn 1 cent from any deal.

Or do not let you pay in "shares". Demand a fixed price + share of sold copies.

Also do not forget: a publisher does advertising amongst their other portfolio, they know how to push products ... and know people/youtubers/...


Aside of that:
All your games you presented there (except star dancer) have in common that they use YOUR assets.  Over the games you learned that your assets often lacked certain stuff (needed for these games). With your latest game (which you liked so much) you already improved a lot presentation wise.
Yet the games lack a lot of "polishing". Polishing is needed to have even a slight chance to survive in the mass market of games.

Your games are all "seemingly more complex" (gameplay, option, ... -wise). This means a lot more assets are needed. A lot more stuff to polish.
The "niche" games you describe (hidden objects, match 3...). They all are NOT just doing their basic gameplay, the all have different minigames and share something: stunning backgrounds/full screen assets and a high amount of polishing.

I often said your assets are good "prototypes" ... but each of them would need more revisions to become high quality "full screen assets".
People judge your visuals first - THEN they look at the gameplay.

Your game must look sleek or really needs STRONG words of mouth - or you need to find your own niche (hardcore strategy/war games in which people expect "basic" graphics but tight core gameplay).


To sum up: you can create interesting games with some intriguing game play ideas ... not all are capable of making a living from it, but all should allow you to "improve".
With only the last game you tried to improve "visuals/appearance".
You are reusing your own framework each time - why not improve that too? Add more "polishing" to stuff like widget animation (menus move in animated instead of just "appearing"). why not add support to "flash" a dash-sprite over your sprite buttons to emphasize a "please click here to continue" ... all the subtle things people make think the game has received  lot of developer love.
All these functions - you could use them over and over in all your games - just replace the asset, replace the movement path / interpolation algorithm (bounce, quadIn ...).


bye
Ron

Matty

I think my biggest problem Derron is that I enjoy my own games once they reach a certain level of polish and unless I have someone pointing out what's still missing I completely don't see it.

I'm easily pleased and get lost in the gameplay and simply am blind to all the extra polish the market demands. 

iWasAdam

without sounding demeaning... Don't do ANYTHING with graphics - no bitmaps, NOTHING. White something using ONLY drawbox / ascii.

Start with snake. learn how it works and how it moves. next try pacman (just using boxes - NO GRAPHICS), then maybe a quick space invaders. then boulderdash - you can use circles here if you really want to - NO GRAPHICS.

If you really want to take things further write a dungeon creator using ascii


DON'T have anything apart from the dungeon generation. Just a way to move about - NO CREATURES or anything else
Next add doors - and areas that are hidden until you open then doors - lastly add some sort of light where parts of the rooms are hidden when you are far away.
All of this will give you 'core' concepts and ideas and code thoughts

Theres an old game called zombies:

https://inconsolation.wordpress.com/2014/12/01/zombies-theres-always-room-for-one-more-ascii-zombie-game/
where you move - they move. The move towards you, there are hols for them to fall in. very simple. but teaches a whole load of things

Find out what makes a game good - find out what you can and can't do.

Use something nice and simple like Pico-8. learn, show us your steps

using images and 3d and all those flashy thigs doesn't teach you what a good game is

Matty

I did all those when I was 12.....30 years ago.

iWasAdam

#6
well go back and do them again!

In fact - use BlitzMaxNG. Learn how to do exactly that - open a window, find an ascii font, try to make the simplist game framework - it's not a simple task you know...

Matty

Nice idea.  But what is my motivation to return to primary school?

iWasAdam

#8
Because in 30 years you've forgotten what makes a game.

ok. To put it another way...
You are so brilliant at programming you don't need any help from any of us. Everyone loves you games and they sell in millions. People love you as everything you do is completely amazing... You are a programming god. You just need to look at a keyboard and a popular game comes flooding out...

I am playing your greatest hits now...

You founded ID software because your maths skills were incomparable.
Ultimate failed because you wouldn't create another hit like KnightLore and your amazing isometric gameplay.
Games workshop is bankrupt because you wont publish a new D&D book.
You invented Pong!
Atari was all your idea - because your ideas are brilliant and you are so great at everything you do...



AM I GETTING THROUGH TO YOU!!!!!!!


Seriously - go back to the basics and learn what makes a game a game, what is fun without being troubled by graphics and 3d and flashy things... There is SOO much to be learnt there...
:)


iWasAdam

And (Just so you know I'm eating what I preach)...
I thought I would do EXACTLY what I told you to do...

TomToad

Here is a talk by Jake Birkett of Grey Alien Games on his experiences as an indie developer.  Might learn a few things here. :)
------------------------------------------------
8 rabbits equals 1 rabbyte.

Matty

Thanks GfK - I like your comments, and you've been doing this for a long time successfully.

TomToad, yeah I've seen that before.  I actually met Jake on a video call in 2010 or 2011 at my old workplace when my boss wanted the company to make some games.


iWasAdam

#12
Why not 'try' something - write a traditional ascii rogue. it will make you think about gameplay, interaction, story, movement, ui, etc...

Adding 2d or 3d to an ascii rogue is just a different display mechanism. Adding gameplay and systems to a 3d display is much MUCH harder...

Here's a nice simple ascii font for you to start with :)


Or use the font and write a text adventure game...

Matty

To be honest I enjoy playing with graphics.  For example in Warlock I love cycling through rerolling characters just to see the different clothing combinations on the little avatars.  Especially in arcade mode rather than quest mode where all the equipment is unlocked right from the beginning.  I can't do that as nicely with an ascii rogue.

I like the monsters exploding into chunks of themselves when the player deals too much damage to them, and watching the gibbets fly in parabolic arcs and bouncing on the dungeon floor.  Doesn't really make sense in an ascii rogue.

I like the way the little bird flies overhead on the main map, and the dungeons get populated with bits of random detritus.

The way the torches flicker.

The arcs of lightning from some characters.

These little graphics are what thrill me about the game.

I'd be bored senseless by a ascii based dungeon crawler these days.

iWasAdam

QuoteTo be honest I enjoy playing with graphics.
Then that's brilliant :) But don't keep crying about people not liking your games, no one downloads them, etc.

We can keep telling you what is wrong, what you can do, things to try, things to look at. But if YOU are happy then brilliant :)
But don't keep crying about people not liking your games, no one downloads them, etc.

QuoteFor example in Warlock I love cycling through rerolling characters just to see the different clothing combinations on the little avatars.
Then make a paper doll app - focus on making it the best looking and best paper doll app. But focus on the graphics - make you graphics look the best you can :)

QuoteI can't do that as nicely with an ascii rogue.
Actually you can, but you would have to think about it (very hard - which you don't want to, or can't be bothered to). There is a skill to ascii and to UI's. If you can make a great looking ascii things, then you have the skills to make a great 2d and even 3d version. Currently you need to have the basic skills. Focus, Learn, try things.
...
But don't keep crying about people not liking your games, no one downloads them, etc. You are just shifting the blame to others. It's not our fault if your game plays bad and we don't like it - that's your fault <- brutal but true.

Put in the time and effort to work out why something doesn't work.

QuoteI like the monsters exploding into chunks of themselves when the player deals too much damage to them, and watching the gibbets fly in parabolic arcs and bouncing on the dungeon floor.  Doesn't really make sense in an ascii rogue.
I'm starting to sound like a broken record here - YES IT CAN, but you will have to learn, YOU will have to develop your skills...

Here is (possibly the best) example of what ascii can do:


and another:


You go on about parabolic arcs - nice but irrelevent - Look at Cogmind. There is more complexity and brilliant stuff going on there than any of your warlock games. And there is complex stories and integrations and emergent behaviours, etc. He started with something simple and expanded on it. You could take that data and transfer it to 3d or isometric and it would look great.

But taking badly drawn 2d with poorly draw 'BOOM' as a kill doesn't give the user a good feeling... Learn what works and what doesn't.

I am trying (desperately) to tell you to go back to basics - find out what works. How would you make ascii do an explosion, etc. What is a character card/sheet/data and how do they all interact with each other.

Using something like ascii means you dont have anything flashy to distract you - just the code and the concept. Learn how to run with them first.

Unless all you want is a paper doll that can explode - thats fine too.

But don't keep crying about people not liking your games, no one downloads them, etc. Because you couldn't be bothered to make a good game first and then make it look good second!

# is a block of some kind. if it's green its a tree if it's grey its a wall

so your data is:
data[pos] = #
kind[pos] = green/grey

You don't need to draw trees or walls, or think about what they look like. You just have t decide what happen when you run into them... The actual game!!!


And to finish with something nice to think about. The guy who created Cogmind, first created RexPaint and then used it to create cogmind - And you say that ascii isn't as good as 2d/3d. It seems that 10's of thousands of people prefer ascii to your games...






Be inspired. Break what you consider your 'safe' way of working. do something completely different. at least try :)