May 27, 2020, 01:37:28 PM

Author Topic: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.  (Read 4816 times)

Offline Derron

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Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2018, 06:51:56 AM »
Quote from: Qube
Priority for immigrants should be based on skill set and not their country of origin dictated by the EU parliament.

So you only want to do "cherry picking" ?

The problem with cherry picking from neighbours cherry tree is (?) - yes, that there are no good cherries left on that neighbours tree.


bye
Ron

Offline ENAY

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Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2018, 10:36:28 AM »
Cherry picking is a good idea. Why would you accept someone who has nothing to offer?

This is coming from someone who had to painfully go through all sorts of hoops to get employed and live in Japan. Japan is very strict on immigration and whether that's a good thing or not depends on your Political view I guess. For me it's a good idea because if just anybody can come in, then well it causes an massive issues in all parts of that society.

If you let immigrants in that possess a certain level of skill, you're also also highly likely letting people in who actually want to live in your country and not want to cause trouble, sponge off the system.

London Mayor Sadiq Khan famously said "Get Used To' Islamic Attacks" and that they are "Part and Parcel of living in a big city".

Well I call bullshit on that, in Japan, Tokyo and 5 other massive cities bigger than London have no Islamic Terrorism. I don't think Japan has had any terrorism from a foreigner ever and those are the biggest cities in the world.

I'm also really annoyed by that stupid "Diversity is our strength" argument. Well which country has the strongest immigration rules and fights to protect its nation and culture and also has the richest and well known cuisine, culture in the world?

Oh wait, that's Japan as well.

It's almost as if opening the flood gates makes problems decades down the line for any country involved.

This is the heart of the matter of which really annoys me about the EU.
The EU wants to unite Europe and the free movement of people but yet it wants to restrict the free movement of thoughts ideas and Internet traffic. The world is already connected, thanks to the Internet and they want to split up facebook by regions. It's quite literally an unelected totalitarian government with no way of switching it off at this point. I'm honestly surprised more people aren't more worried about the EU than they are. I'm sure they genuinely think Brexit isn't going to happen or they will try and stall for 10-20 years so that during THEIR lifetimes they still get all the benefits that the EU is giving to them.

Check out the comment sections on this video (video published yesterday)

Offline Qube

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Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2018, 12:50:59 PM »
Quote from: Qube
Priority for immigrants should be based on skill set and not their country of origin dictated by the EU parliament.

So you only want to do "cherry picking" ?

The problem with cherry picking from neighbours cherry tree is (?) - yes, that there are no good cherries left on that neighbours tree.
I never mentioned "cherry picking". That's the kind of twisting of word argument that gets presented a lot. My point was quite clear. The EU government should not dictate to it's member states who they can and can not allow into the hosting nation.

It makes complete sense to have an immigration policy based on quality over quantity.
Until the next time...

Offline Naughty Alien

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Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2018, 01:18:02 PM »
...'cherry picking' is a good thing, if it comes to that immigrants 'must be allowed' for whatever reason..similar to what ENAY said..here in Malaysia, immigration rules are very specific...you must have some valuable skills to stay here, and when you do stay, you cant have malaysian passport, ever..what you can have is PR, which allows you to do stay for a life, do business, government grants and everything else as any local, except..voting..and i think its very good...why? Because local society stays intact from imported influence and at same time do benefit from having foreign expertise...otherwise, it will be situation as i have seen in Berlin and Frankfurt, with signboards showing that 'woman in skirt is not a prostitute'....i mean..wtf..why this nonsense is needed?? Streets are full of young folks, obviously non europeans, doing nothing but gathering, while host people working off their ass and pay for expenses of this imported jokers...they should all go to Merkel home and stay there, let her clean up after them..

Offline Qube

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Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2018, 01:54:42 PM »
Quote
they should all go to Merkel home and stay there, let her clean up after them..
I don't know about that. I do think the flood gate approach was a badly thought out idealistic plan. It didn't work, it failed miserably on many fronts.

I think every well off country should help out but help out by not being over flooded. I also think society could do more to help integration. Those are sensible things to which each nation should make their own rules and laws and once more, not be dictated to about who, what, when and why.
Until the next time...

Offline Holzchopf

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Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2018, 01:55:59 PM »
I disassociate myself from such far-right views.

Do you realize how inhuman it sounds to praise cherry-picking in times when people leave their homeland due to life-threatening crises?

I know there are also those who try to sneak in and profit from social systems. And we all know this discussion ain't about people who try to escape war. It's about "article 13" and somehow derailed so heavily that I can't help but make clear that I don't share the views that can be interpreted in the words you wrote. I won't say it's what you mean (because I hope it's not what you mean). But still, this is a public community where everyone can read what you wrote. What you WROTE, not necessarily what you MEANT.

I'd be more than happy if you could bring back the discussion about article 13. If it's a serious matter, it would be helpful to break down the paragraphs in this article. For those interested and/or don't see what's all the fuss about. PLEASE ???

Offline Naughty Alien

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Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2018, 02:11:10 PM »
Quote
What you WROTE, not necessarily what you MEANT.

..if you referring on to me, i wrote what i think..and everyone is free to read it as im actually speaking that very openly in real life..while i do understand life-threatening crisis very well, i also completely dont understand how so many young and army capable man, decide to run away instead of fighting for their homeland...what i dont understand is, if they were looking for better life and start new life somewhere (perfectly understand that), why then so many criminal came in to country and done by same group of people who looks for shelter and new beginning? Me myself left Europe for good(i cant stand europe/germany way it is today and some of my family member have seen a prison for just expressing their doubts over WW2) and im immigrant, if you will, on another side of the world, and i see myself working hard on my own instead of lurking trough the streets and thinking how to screw something..

Offline Qube

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Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2018, 02:44:59 PM »
I disassociate myself from such far-right views.

Do you realize how inhuman it sounds to praise cherry-picking in times when people leave their homeland due to life-threatening crises?
This is classic “your views differ from mine and therefore you have far right views”

I think you are perhaps cherry picking parts of my posts?. If you read all the posts made I actually do promote fair immigration. I’m just dead against being told by the EU parliament where from, how many, etc etc. Is it so wrong to want your own country to make its own path in history and not want the ever expanding dictatorship of EU law?

I agree that this thread should get back on topic :)
Until the next time...

Offline Holzchopf

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Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2018, 03:29:26 PM »
I think you are perhaps cherry picking parts of my posts?

Don't worry, after you stated you never mentioned cherry picking, I wouldn't address you with my words about cherry picking. Yep, you were just unfortunate enough to post while I was typing my rant so it looked liked I was referring to your post (which I saw, thanks to a red alert bar saying someone posted while I typed. But I thought I'm leaving it as is, since @-ing the ones I was addressing would be unnaycessarily Naughty  ::) )

Sorry for "off-topic-ing" again.

edit
Now I've read this article. The key part (in my view) is,
Quote
[...]platform providers should (deep breath) “take measures to ensure the functioning of agreements concluded with rightholders for the use of their works or other subject-matter or to prevent the availability on their services of works or other subject-matter identified by rightholders through the cooperation with the service providers.”

Those measures should be “appropriate and proportionate”, and the platforms should provide rightsholders with “adequate reporting on the recognition and use of the works and other subject-matter”.

I think for a forum like this (where technically it is possible to upload copyrighted material), having one or two persons checking the contents regularly and remove them if needed or when the rightholder asks for it like maybe within 72 hours, is “appropriate and proportionate”. While for Youtube setting up AI algorithms with all kind of image and sound recognition that prevent uploading such material, is “appropriate and proportionate”.

Motions always sound huge and scary in the beginning because it's kinda the nature of politics to castrate them a little. So if you want X, you better ask for 50*X, because otherwise you're left with something that's only 2% of what you want and suddenly it doesn't even matter any more if it's accepted or declined. Same goes for those who fight it: If you're afraid X contains 2% of insanity, you gotta act as it's 100% of insanity because otherwise you'll just hear "meh, it's not THAT bad". For huge masses it works. But there are individuals who like to do the maths themselves. And they won't be that impressed by one-sided videos  ;)

Online Steve Elliott

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Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2018, 09:47:44 PM »
Call it as you see it.  But we are a small country that has little industrial base.  So without EU backing we are floating about trying to strike a deal with people like Trump.  Who has just slapped a 25% tax on our steel and 10% on our Aluminium imports to the US!

Special relationship, my arse.  We are very alone and will get shafted.  The EU is far from perfect, but with a UK Government that is incompetent and only looks after the wealthy - on top of Brexit and austerity...Then I wish I could afford to leave this titanic of a country.
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Offline MikeHart

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Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2018, 09:01:23 AM »
Interesting to read some comments about Merkel land / Germany here. Nice. And thank you for showing your thoughts so clearly. I can't wait for the day my country stops supporting half of the eu. Bye.

Offline Qube

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Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2018, 09:14:20 AM »
Steve, you are spot on in all of that and it shames me how weak our current government / climate is. Our leadership is banal and so consumed with self preservation it's embarrassing.

I voted for Brexit as there is too much corruption and power hungry conglomerates across the EU to make it fair. I'd love the UK to be part of a very tight integrated EU. For all the EU nations to join up and genuinely become as one great emerging nation.

As a very odd side thing. One of my personal proudest moments was during the first Gulf war. To see UK and German air force working together just showed that we're here for each other. I thought that was great, a proud moment for Europe and to show how nations can move on and get along together.

Of course England vs Germany in football is a totally different scenario and one way beyond political resolution :P

Crap, thread derail again... Sorry :(
Until the next time...

Offline Qube

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Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2018, 09:32:20 AM »
Interesting to read some comments about Merkel land / Germany here. Nice. And thank you for showing your thoughts so clearly. I can't wait for the day my country stops supporting half of the eu. Bye.
Yeah I read the negative post towards Germany. No need for that what so ever. I don't like it and it needs to stop right now.
Until the next time...

Offline Derron

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Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2018, 11:23:10 AM »
I wanted to post this earlier this morning (before MikeHarts post):


People seem to only blame Merkel and EU ... and I bet, I really bet that none of us - and most of the others - would not do better. Nobody knows what would have happened it we did not have done the "flood gate opening". Some countries might have had sent back ships not worth getting called "ship". Some countries might have had opened big slums/ghettos villages for "these people".
Nobody knows what would happen - some were right with assumptions, some not.


@ Naughty Alien
So why were parts of your family in prison - what did they "doubt" on WW2? Holocaust?
Regardless of what happened during wars: winner forms the truth to their will. Nonetheless I think that certain things happened as it is told us that it happened, there are just too many evidences.
Also I think we had a similar issue at blitzmax.com with someone doubting stuff happening in concentration camps (some "smoke" stuff). To say that these things were fake, is a big big punch in the face of people who suffered directly or indirectly on the brutality of dictatorships (may it be Nazi, Stalin's gulags + troops, Chinese/Mao ...).

For now I do not see _any_ reason to blame "Germany" for current events. Think Angela Merkel does a pretty good job - even if some decisions were not the best, but maybe it were the best available at that moment. Things got even worse with Trump - but for Trump people prefer doing "jokes" while for Germany people only express angryness...

So many people in the EU benefit from laws the EU made, some suffered from it - and especially labor is always a problem. "They do take away our jobs". Guess what the West Germany people told about us East germany ones when "countries joined who never should have been split apart" ? They told exactly the same. Jobs/labor is opinion driving the masses. Higher educated people always could get jobs - also in other countries. But as said this is "cherry picking" and taking away something from a country without "giving" is just as bad as slavery or "colonial behaviour": you exhaust a country. You exhaust until there is no chance for a country to stand on its own feet anymore.

Take all the doctors, engineers, ... from a country, all the intellectual (and not religion "poisoned" ones) and what is left is something brutal forces/religious leaders can control.
To not distinguish between poor, uneducated, educated ... brings a lot of criminals, uneducated, ... people that is for sure - but it also makes people in that country identify themselves as "respected" human being - instead of a 4th (not even 3rd class!) class person.


All of us (maybe partly even Yue) live way over world's average - and blame each other for behaving egoistic, corrupt, .... Most of the people would cheat here and there for a benefit: you are 15 and until 14 you only pay 50%. Many of us would cheat to save a bit of money (especially if money is rare in that moment).
Now imagine you want to flee from your country and know that they cannot send you back if you have no passport/id card - follow their rules and throw away that thing.
Now imagine you know that 16 and above makes sending back easier: why not say you are 15 instead of 20?

I do not think it is _good_ that they do such things, but I understand it and am pretty sure that I would do the same if I were in their position.


@ Criminals
You need a bit of "bad boy"-ness to survive these long trails from origin in Africa/Far East to Europe. You either have the money or need (slightly criminal) energy to reach the end of your route. This is why many younger people came - and many of them were male. Would you send your daughter or your son on a dangerous route? Would more likely 5 woman (not allowed to do stuff alone ...another story) start their journey to Europe, or 5 guys knowing each other since 10+ years?

Nonetheless people should get send back if they do not follow the guidelines of the country they want to live in: so they cannot claim freedom of their religion if they want to live in a village enforcing a specific religion: choose another village and voila. I also cannot visit their countries and go into their churches while wearing shoes - or short throusers or whatever they dislike. Behave as "guest" and people would accept you. This brings us back to the teenagers/young man: when you were young you also tried to be "over everything". Nobody was able to tell you what to do and what not (exception: maybe the police :-)).


@ internet
For me the EU is always kind of an "USA" approach. Many little countries with their individual governments under one single on-top-goverment. Like federal states. And yes, some benefit from it, others only have costs. In Germany the bigger federal states like Bavaria always blame others (like Brandenburg - with higher unemployement rate) to be states they have to pay for. If you go smaller - you will find the same issues even in towns (with some areas being the "problematic areas" and the other ones being the "wealthy areas").

So if the EU was some kind of "USA" then of course the laws are there to create kind of unified standards for all participants of the EU. Biggest problem is: there are surely people in the EU goverment with knowledge of the subject - and especially the people working for them are freaks, geeks, nerds - with knowledge. But everything needs to get signed, voted for ... and yay, results are laws which need to get refined sooner or later.
Do not forget how "young" the EU is - only 2 decades (ignoring the "preparation" - like the "Ecu" :-)). Such big big - nearly semi-global - stuff takes time to form, to make people get "used" to something. Nowerdays it is so easy to blame and flame on the internet - but many of us were not fighting on the streets for their rights. It is easier to vote (or not) and then blame that all the politicians are corrupt or only want to gain benefits.  These people also blame their bosses to drive big cars instead of adding 2-3% to the wage of their employees. They also blame that some CEOs earn too much money for "doing nothing". It is so easy to blame... but not to shame!


bye
Ron

Offline cpsmith0191

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Re: Yikes! This isn't going to end well.
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2018, 12:52:19 PM »
wow, diversity of opinion a very good thing in my view, but please read the proposals before jumping all over them. Also a fact or two wouldn't come amiss. European union is not a dictatorship, the members of the European parliament are elected and the commissioners are elected by the euro MP's. Just like UK parliament where we vote for our MP's who select a cabinet to rule over us. All laws formed are subject to veto by member states, if passed are implemented by the member states elected bodies by vote of that elected body. Many UK people voted to stay, almost as many who voted to leave.
Japan has its home grown perpetrators of atrocities (nerve gas attack on underground system with a nerve agent developed in the UK). We in the UK are a multicultural lot from way back, even if we don't want to admit it. (Angles, Saxons, Jutes etc) Since the EU was formed European powers have had the longest period of peace (between member states) in its turbulent history. And finally 'chased out of ones country for questing WWII' reminded me of the service men who returned from liberating Belsan after demob, only to find some nut jobs claiming that the Nazi's didn't try to and exterminate the disabled, Jews, Slavs and Gypsies. They chased the perpetrators of these lies out of Hyde Park. Have fun cps

 

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