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Author Topic: Im annoyed with current IDE's General Concept  (Read 1401 times)

Offline Hardcoal

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Im annoyed with current IDE's General Concept
« on: February 04, 2018, 04:25:54 AM »
I'm trying to Experiment on my own concept..
Its not gonna be a fully IDE Editor.. Just Experimental.
I can't make a fully IDE Editor with my current knowledge.

And Even If I can.. I prefer not to atm.

Ill post something.. when I have something to demonstrate..
Im working on that as we speak..

Offline RemiD

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Re: Im annoyed with current IDE's General Concept
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2018, 10:45:02 AM »
just a suggestion : watch this video, again and again and again, until you grasp the idea :
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Offline Derron

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Re: Im annoyed with current IDE's General Concept
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2018, 11:10:46 AM »
Thanks for the video.


- so you have done 80% of your game and then you grasp: fu... the toolbox I have choosen is not capable of doing what I need to do (networking, physics, ...)
- it is correct that "doing visible things" keeps up the motivation
- for IDEs there are plenty of IDEs around - some are truly customizable but the more hardcoals intented "workflow" differs from currently "common sense" the less the current IDEs will suit
- for many simple games the guy is right: just finish it - but who of us does not dream of "the super project" ;-)

- dude reminds me on "Kevin Heffernan" (Super Troopers)

Source: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/0/06/Kevin_Heffernan.jpg

Offline RemiD

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Re: Im annoyed with current IDE's General Concept
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2018, 11:41:36 AM »
another one for Derron :


(btw, i partly agree with you that sometimes you need to code your own map editor or other custom tool because the existing ones don't have the functionalities that you need, and you waste too much time using workarounds, however his approach to create small games with essential functionalities and to make them accessible to a target group of players, to see if it is appreciated or not, if it is worth continuing or not, and adding more functionalities/details later, is a good advice imo)

At the end of the day, if we ask the question : after all these hours spent on the computer, what tools/games have you created ? are they appreciated by a group of players ? have you managed to earn some money with them ? (if this was your goal)

Personally, i admit to have wasted too much time in the wrong direction, in the past, (for example my obsession with realistic lighting/shading and shadows)
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Offline Hardcoal

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Re: Im annoyed with current IDE's General Concept
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2018, 11:51:08 AM »
Remi.. I slightly agree with what you posted..
but Its my passion to try to build Editors :)

Its true I dont make Games..

but who said i only like Game making?

I did my mistakes.. long time ago.. I cant go back now..

I have other problems rather than only concentrating on making games..
it concerns screens..


Offline Derron

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Re: Im annoyed with current IDE's General Concept
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2018, 11:55:20 AM »
You should do the targetgroup checks in all kind of products you create. Applications, books, ...


Only exception is: writing personal tools (as YOU know what YOU want). So if the game is mainly for YOU, then write it the way YOU like. Regarding this thread it means: Hardcoal is not accepting the current IDEs' mechanics, workflows ... and wants to change that. If that is mostly done "for himself", then OK. But if it is done to sell it at the end, then a prototype to checkout "acceptance" will help a lot.


Using "MaxGUI" seems indeed to be not the most perfect choice. You _will_ have to create many custom widgets - leading to a lot of stress. If you want to use BlitzMax for your GUI stuff you should really take a look at wxMax (and so wxWidgets) as they provide plenty of ready widgets you _will_ need later on. Starting with wxScintilla - which has a lot of inbuilt stuff compared to MaxGUIs custom textarea. Just checkout MaxIDEs undo problems (sometimes deletes the wrong text, redo pastes it into the wrong lines again and so on).
wxScintilla has undo/redo built into already.
But even if you use wxMax you will recognize that some widgets are "empty" (stubs). Had to extend the wxPropertyGrid as some functions were empty. Think Brucey gladly accepts pull requests if you extend wxMax to be more feature complete (read: doing "the tech" rather than "the game").




@ second video
Had this as suggested video already, but I prefer to code now - get too much distracted by video after video :-). Quantity vs Quality does not work for every person. I understand that "finishing something" is better than having only prototypes. But I for instance do not like to give something "unfinished" or "bugged". I cannot achieve perfection in all areas but I try to do so - while I know that it costs way more time (Pareto optimum... 80% quality in 20% of development time, missing 20% quality in 80% development time). But that's me and some others might think similar. "economically" wise this is not the smartest approach of doing things. Bring the stuff out and if it does not work? Who cares? The next project is already nearly completition.


Things of course change if you are a famous developer and people have high expectations. But think for now nobody of us plays in that league (yet ;-)).




bye
Ron

Offline Hardcoal

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Re: Im annoyed with current IDE's General Concept
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2018, 12:23:34 PM »
RemiD I totally agree with you on second thought..
Shame I didn't see this video long time ago..

I was trying to make games in the beginning..
But on blitz there was no map editor..
Which dragged me into building one..

I had stupidally great ambitions

Offline RemiD

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Re: Im annoyed with current IDE's General Concept
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2018, 12:26:48 PM »
@Hardcoal>>of course you do what you want, it is your life, your time, but i just wanted to post this here to make us think about why we do what we do...

This video is not targeted to you specifically, to me and to others developpers also...

I don't agree with everything this guy says... Sometimes it is necessary to make a custom editor/tool, to then waste less time building/editing things for your game. Or to code your own gameplay elements/mechanics (you can't make all types of gameplays using gamemaker/construct !)

But nonetheless, it is interesting to listen to others views, from time to time, because as developpers, we tend to become obsessed on things which are not necessarily important.
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Offline Derron

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Re: Im annoyed with current IDE's General Concept
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2018, 12:44:09 PM »
We do not just become obsessed - we also become "blind". We become used to how things in our tools, games, ... work, how to auto-circumvent annoyancies (we just do not recognize them annoyancies). So we always use "ctrl + c" plus "ctrl + v" to copy paste. Some people prefer using a mouse - so a context menu "cut, copy, paste, ..." helps them. We never thought of adding these as we were used to come along without them.
I never used the Hex-Color-picker in Geany (text editor) as I previsualize my CSS stuff in Photoshop before - so eyedropper is used there. Others blindly code and these little helper (hex color picker) speeds up _their_ workflow.


Regarding doing your own tools: the more individual-game-specific a tool becomes the less time you should spend on it. Make it work, and ok. Making it versatile can be done in the next project needing it. Nonetheless your code should be written and planned "adoptable" if you know that it will be used later again - in a non 1:1 way. While I overcomplicate many things in my code ("might be of use later on") I know that I would save a lot of time by just writing/prototyping stuff. On the other hand I had plenty of code I had to overhaul because it was not as extendible as planned. Eg. it lead to circular dependencies (a requires b, b requires c, c requires information from a). As this took some weeks to redo - several times in the last years - I tended to do things "more complicate now" to save the hassle later on.
Downside is that much of this stuff is BlitzMax - so I am kind of "bound" to the language.
Benefit of that is an easy reusage of GUIstuff and the likes. I can concentrate on the gameplay - and later on the time consuming stuff of connecting GUI to action (button click = do something, reacting on list selections and so on).

As I never really used "unity" (or other click-n-drop-or-code-by-hand toolboxes) I do not know how much hassle I would have there - I believe there is plenty of stuff not working as I expect them to work, or they are just non-existing. But it might also be the case that there are a lot of things available which I need to write in BlitzMax first.

Regardless of all this stuff: coding a line improves coding the second line. Doing some "tech"-stuff helps understanding things, helps auto-optimizing code you create months later. You avoid sloppy code, performance-desasters etc.

bye
Ron

Offline iWasAdam

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Re: Im annoyed with current IDE's General Concept
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2018, 01:19:39 PM »
Hey guys it's me.... :P
Quote
At the end of the day, if we ask the question : after all these hours spent on the computer, what tools/games have you created ? are they appreciated by a group of players ?
So I have created a lot of different editors, from text, to graphics, to sound, to IDE, connected blueprint, etc. But I LIKE MAKING TOOLS and i enjoy the technical workout in learning new things and solving problems. Using pre-made tools you don't learn anything, you just fit into the way of working.

As to the second, I make them for myself, but I have very strict standards with an eye to being used by others. So far I have had 2 very good successes with apps being recommended for Ludum Dare and also some other mod sites and resource hunters.

I think the essence of not making tools is not a good one, as how do you learn deeper things. but if all you want is a mini game or two, then writing editors is not a good place to start.

writing EDITORS is HARD - probably significantly harder than a game, as you have to deal with engines, and UI's.

Offline Hardcoal

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Re: Im annoyed with current IDE's General Concept
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2018, 01:53:40 PM »
I was about to make games essentially but my ambitions for games were over the current games of those times..
There is nothing wrong in making editors..
and you learn for them a lot as well..

My main complaint is or maybe the only.. is about the screen tiredness that causes me to be very inefficient.
If I wanted to make simple games back than, than I would use directly programming..
If I went back in time.. i would probably change some of my tactics ..

Offline RemiD

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Re: Im annoyed with current IDE's General Concept
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2018, 02:04:34 PM »
I think that the advice of the guy is not to never make a custom editor/tool but rather to not waste too much time on unimportant things, when you are making a prototype / indie game, rather to focus on the essentials components/functionalities, and to focus on the details and to add more functionalities later, when you know that what you have made is appreciated and worth continuing (if your goal is to create games not only for yourself, but also for some players who like a specific subject/gameplay)

However, it is clear that those who have the understanding/skills to make unique gameplay elements/mechanics, original graphics, original sounds, can differentiate from the crowd of developpers who use tools like gamemaker/construct or templates/graphics/sounds from the unity/unreal stores...
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Offline STEVIE G

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Re: Im annoyed with current IDE's General Concept
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2018, 02:12:02 PM »
Hey guys it's me.... :P
Quote
At the end of the day, if we ask the question : after all these hours spent on the computer, what tools/games have you created ? are they appreciated by a group of players ?
So I have created a lot of different editors, from text, to graphics, to sound, to IDE, connected blueprint, etc. But I LIKE MAKING TOOLS and i enjoy the technical workout in learning new things and solving problems. Using pre-made tools you don't learn anything, you just fit into the way of working.

As to the second, I make them for myself, but I have very strict standards with an eye to being used by others. So far I have had 2 very good successes with apps being recommended for Ludum Dare and also some other mod sites and resource hunters.

I think the essence of not making tools is not a good one, as how do you learn deeper things. but if all you want is a mini game or two, then writing editors is not a good place to start.

writing EDITORS is HARD - probably significantly harder than a game, as you have to deal with engines, and UI's.

It's subjective but I don't think writing an Editor is harder than writing a game.  I guess it depends on the game and the editor.  Writing something on the scale of Unity - of course - but just a level editor - definitely not.  Just MHO.

Online Steve Elliott

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Re: Im annoyed with current IDE's General Concept
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2018, 02:14:27 PM »
Quote
i enjoy the technical workout in learning new things and solving problems. Using pre-made tools you don't learn anything, you just fit into the way of working.

I agree.  And if you don't like something, or several things about the pre-made tool?  Then that's frustrating, and you'll be less likely to want to produce a game with it.

But it's not for everybody, so people using pre-made tools can be more productive when it comes to games.
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Offline Hardcoal

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Re: Im annoyed with current IDE's General Concept
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2018, 03:02:29 PM »
i just want to  say.. that i did finish my editor long time ago.. (most of it)
And I  can make games with it ..
so though i agree that Make Games and not techonology is the right approach
and i've sacrificed too much for this editor. I did manage to make it work..

its just what exactly this guy said in the video..
I got so mentally tired.. that i gave up even that I've reached almost the End..

I still didn't give up on it , but having no results is really frustrating.. and awfully idiotic approach which sadly i chose.