SyntaxBomb - Indie Coders

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: MikeHart on September 26, 2021, 13:24:34

Title: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: MikeHart on September 26, 2021, 13:24:34
Myself and some others got approached by a big game dev company to work on an existing very successful game.

I must say, working in a professional AA or AAA environment is a whole different level which can be overwhelming at times but also is fucking interesting and exciting. I never thought this opportunity would ever came but you never know what can happen. Never.

So don't give up. Keep working on your skills, use the tools you love and get your name out there. If you fancy a professional game dev job, it can happen.
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: col on September 26, 2021, 15:38:50
Wow that's awesome!! Very well done  8)

Wish you all the very best of luck too!

It would be nice to share how things progress there, to give some insight to other inspired game programmers - you know, strip away all the glitz and glamour and say how it really turns out - good and bad!

I wish you tons of good luck and praise in your endeavour. Well done 👏
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: blinkok on September 26, 2021, 23:06:42
Congrats Mike and good luck with it
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: Steve Elliott on September 26, 2021, 23:55:18
Great news, congrats Mike.
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: Qube on September 27, 2021, 02:02:59
Nice on, great news :) - Keep us up to date as much as you can. I know these things usually come with an NDA to keep things super hush hush :))
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: MikeHart on September 27, 2021, 05:08:20
Yes Qube, the contractual restrictions are high and the fines you gotta pay when you go against them hurt big time. So I can't say much.

The most difficult task ATM is to understand the existing code base. Be it the game code itself or the frameworks. And it is a lot. I think everything I have dealed with in the past was child's play compared to this project. The company I got hired by is AppLovin. It's a part time job. So I still have my day job and after that I work on the second one.

Thanks guys for your wishes and encouragement.
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: iWasAdam on September 27, 2021, 06:34:56
excellent news Mike (and your team). It's an amazing feeling when people come to you for your potential skills - a real validation of what you can do.

Take your time to digest everything they give you. And get comfortable with any new systems/way of working/dev environment etc. Then just continue to do what you think is best - that is why they come to you :)

Absorb any and all what they give you (codewise), you will be able to use the new concepts and 'stuff' later...

And keep us posted when and if you can ;)
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: GaborD on September 27, 2021, 08:14:49
Congrats! Sounds like a great opportunity that can open up even more possibilities for the future.
I can second what you said about not giving up and niche languages sometimes being a good door opener. I had a similar thing happen with a big AGK project.
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: therevills on September 27, 2021, 10:30:41
Congrats Mike!
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: Pfaber11 on September 27, 2021, 18:33:01
Very cool indeed. Excellent.
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: markcwm on September 28, 2021, 09:21:37
Hi Mike,
exciting news, thanks for letting us know, hope it goes well.
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: RemiD on October 02, 2021, 09:33:07
@MikeHart :
congrats ! and good luck for the next steps :)


i have a question :
how do you manage the fact that some employer / client ask for the full rights to use the code, but as you know many procedures, functions, systems, can be reused in different projects...

an approach imo would be to post the reusable procedures, functions, systems, as free to use (like on the blitzbasic forum), and give the full rights of the code specific to the project, to the employer / client.

any advices about that ?
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: MikeHart on October 02, 2021, 19:24:20
Quote from: RemiD on October 02, 2021, 09:33:07
@MikeHart :
congrats ! and good luck for the next steps :)


i have a question :
how do you manage the fact that some employer / client ask for the full rights to use the code, but as you know many procedures, functions, systems, can be reused in different projects...

an approach imo would be to post the reusable procedures, functions, systems, as free to use (like on the blitzbasic forum), and give the full rights of the code specific to the project, to the employer / client.

any advices about that ?

Well any code I write for them is theirs. They have full rights to that which is totally fine by me. If I want to include OSS stuff, their have to agree on that first. So far I didn't had a problem with that. The code base I work on is so specific, that there is no danger in collision of interest. And I can't see that happen in forseeable future. The paperwork states what I am allowed to do outside of AppLovin and what not. We have covered our bases in the contracts, means working on Cerberus X is not harmed and also my existing other stuff I can still work on.
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: 3DzForMe on October 03, 2021, 04:57:09
QuoteSo don't give up. Keep working on your skills, use the tools you love and get your name out there. If you fancy a professional game dev job, it can happen.

Well done mike!
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: RemiD on October 03, 2021, 13:43:07
what if you use a GUI system, menu system, controls configuration procedures, graphics effect procedures, collisions / physics system, which can be used in many others projects ?

i suppose that you could include them as an external lib, but in this case, if you give them the full rights, to use, modify, dispose, sell, then there could be a conflict if you also reuse them in others projects (and there is not 100 ways to do achieve the same result), this is what i don't understand.
my guess is that many programmers don't care, and reuse code...
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: MikeHart on October 03, 2021, 19:36:29
Last answer to you REMI. I won't use their code or framework in my own projects. POINT.

And what I develop for them is theirs. POINT.

Don't question my loyalty to the company I am employed to.



Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: RemiD on October 03, 2021, 20:30:38
Ok...
i was just asking generally, not insinuating anything about you.
thanks
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: Derron on October 03, 2021, 21:52:28
Quote from: MikeHart on October 03, 2021, 19:36:29
Don't question my loyalty to the company I am employed to.


Did not see RemiD questioning your loyality (too).

I often think of the same stuff: people code for a company and eg come to conclusions (idea wise). Then at home - two years after the project is completed - they need to come up with a similar solution (so facing the same problem). Then their mind finds a solution (which ... ressembles the one they did 2 yrs ago, maybe not remembering exactly about it). But this time they have the solution "right at hand". They know how to approach the problem and write some code.

At the end the code is similar to the one the wrote in the past. The shorter the code the more similar it will be -- nonetheless the "basic approach" will be the same (maybe evolved a bit as new knowledge was gained over the 2 yrs).

Yet at the end you wrote code which you thought about (and got paid for thinking about!) in the past.


Of course very specific implementation code (so specific to a game or some company specific library) wont be affected. But more these "generic approaches" will be affected. Think of smart asset management, nifty ways to utilize a third party lib nobody "used this way before".


BUT if you think about this stuff - then .... isnt this just similar to "experience" you gain? Nobody will blame you for "but this experience you gained because of US so you cannot use it for others advantages". If I learn to "sum up numbers" in a company, then I can benefit from it in another company - can't I? So at the end the "exclusiveness" of knowledge matters, or the "advantage over others". The more "basic knowledge" it is, the less risky it is to "do it again" for yourself or a different company.




For myself I did it this way: I coded frameworks/libs with "MIT"-Licence. When extending them for work, all would benefit (and I got paid). I did not discuss them overly strong. Explained that I wrote part of it "FOSS" and would keep it that way. I worked for a research facility (now for university) so I think they kinda appreciate a FOSS approach. Yet some stuff is "closed source" (where our "magic" happens) but this is ... very problem specific and not of much use to be open sourced. At the end this results in some framework/library code which I can always "extend from" but which also allows my "private" (read "games") to benefit from. And yes, often the knowledge collected there is non-academic but "time saving" stuff. Next to learn bit by bit on how to approach stuff in a "better way" - with this last point summarizing well what I wrote above: the knowledge you gain during working for someone is not always "protectable".
A publisher wont blame you for having learnt how to write books just because you wrote 5 for them.



@ Mike
Have fun and I wish you the best for not struggling with almost-non-solveable issues. May the code be with you.


bye
Ron
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: Kryzon on October 03, 2021, 22:11:31
Quote from: RemiD on October 03, 2021, 13:43:07
what if you use a GUI system, menu system, controls configuration procedures, graphics effect procedures, collisions / physics system, which can be used in many others projects ?
That depends on the contract, though I don't think it would be fair to ask for exclusivity retroactively. 
So it would be fair if any generic libraries that Mike has coded in the past, he could use them in this new exclusive project for this client but he'll still own them, and his client will own that new copy of the libraries. 
If Mike makes any modifications on the copy (for instance, to interface with the existing codebase that the client's project has), the modified copy belongs only to the client. The original libraries Mike created will remain Mike's and he can use them on other projects as he did with this one, because they existed before the contract was signed. 
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: MikeHart on October 04, 2021, 04:32:13
Kryzon, I didn't say that CX is used by that company. I said that I can work further on CX and publish it.

Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: RemiD on October 04, 2021, 10:10:24
Quote
For myself I did it this way: I coded frameworks/libs with "MIT"-Licence. When extending them for work, all would benefit (and I got paid). I did not discuss them overly strong. Explained that I wrote part of it "FOSS" and would keep it that way. I worked for a research facility (now for university) so I think they kinda appreciate a FOSS approach. Yet some stuff is "closed source" (where our "magic" happens) but this is ... very problem specific and not of much use to be open sourced.

Quote
That depends on the contract, though I don't think it would be fair to ask for exclusivity retroactively. 
So it would be fair if any generic libraries that Mike has coded in the past, he could use them in this new exclusive project for this client but he'll still own them, and his client will own that new copy of the libraries. 
If Mike makes any modifications on the copy (for instance, to interface with the existing codebase that the client's project has), the modified copy belongs only to the client. The original libraries Mike created will remain Mike's and he can use them on other projects as he did with this one, because they existed before the contract was signed.

thanks for these clarifications.


i have already encountered this problem in the past, and did not know how to deal with it :
i have many procedures and graphics already made (by me, for my projects), and a client wants to hire me to create something for him, and to achieve this, i can use several of my existing procedures and graphics, and of course adapt them for the goal and create others specific procedures and graphics only used in the client's project.

i have no problem to give the client all the rights to use / mod / sell the procedures and graphics, but i have a problem if the client wants to forbid the reuse of the procedures and graphics which are not specific to his project and could be reused in many others projects.

that's why i asked...

and that's why i think it is a good idea to post code examples, reusable procedures, free on forums (to prevent copyright trolls)
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: Kryzon on October 06, 2021, 03:08:19
Quote from: MikeHart on October 04, 2021, 04:32:13
Kryzon, I didn't say that CX is used by that company. I said that I can work further on CX and publish it.
Sorry, I misunderstood you. I edited my post now.
Title: Re: You can land a professional game dev job with niche tools
Post by: MikeHart on October 07, 2021, 07:26:22
No problem. My Monkey X experience got me that job.

Regarding existing projects of mine, I secured in my contract that I am allowed to work on them and publish them at will. That was important to me.