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I'm trying to form an opinion on this. What are your thoughts on these?

I saw that people in the UK are protesting against any mandatory vaccinations or passports.

Maybe having vax incentives (rewarding people for pursuing them) is better than mandating/forcing/punishing?

This is a talking point here in Australia now.
I'm not sure what the issue is.
Right now in Australia (And i think around the world) government services (child care etc) are denied if you are not vaccinated for TB or Polio so I don't see why there is an issue for Covid.
In general though i think it will end up a bit like the flu (Quite a lot of people die from the flu every year). Some people will get vaccinated, some won't, a lot will die and that is just the way it will be.

Quote from: blinkok on August 10, 2021, 06:53:17
Right now in Australia (And i think around the world) government services (child care etc) are denied if you are not vaccinated for TB or Polio so I don't see why there is an issue for Covid.

That's a great point.
It is a punitive measure ("you can't do this thing if you don't do this other thing"), but it's become so politically charged that we forget we already have such rules for other diseases like Polio and Tuberculosis.

I kind of agree with mandatory vaccine passports. For example the government of Narnia says any visitors must have a vaccine passport or they don't get in. This then isn't forced on anyone but would be required if they wanted to go to Narnia. If every country followed suit then problem solved.

I am against mandatory vaccinations for individuals in a country as everyone should have the right to be a stupid if they so wish. For example the MMR vaccine isn't mandatory in the UK but any sensible parent would be rushing to get their child vaccinated against such things.

Same as the flu jab each year. It's not forced but as an asthmatic I'm booking my appointment as soon as they're available.

Quote from: Qube on August 11, 2021, 00:57:24
For example the government of Narnia says any visitors must have a vaccine passport or they don't get in. This then isn't forced on anyone but would be required if they wanted to go to Narnia.

My concern about that is that entry to a country would depend if the person was vaccinated with one of the few specific vaccines that are approved in that country. If I wanted to travel to Narnia, I'd need to have been (luckily) vaccinated with any of those approved by the medical authority of Narnia.

For example: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/fact-check-are-9-eu-countries-accepting-covishield-vaccines-for-travel-in-spite-of-eus-decision-not-to/

Given the scarcity of vaccines in my country, I don't think I'll be able to go another round that soon with a different manufacturer that's approved by a country I want to travel to. So for the moment I'm for a passport that only requests that "travellers must have a negative COVID-19 test in the last 14 days", a weaker restriction.

QuoteSame as the flu jab each year.

As long as i can remember, at the onset of winter they would invite a doctor on the news to tell everone to get a jab. Of course they would have chit chat to fill in some airtime. Almost every single time the doctor would eventually say; "You know sooner or later we wont be able to come up with a jab in time and we'll have a real problem then"

i am against a mandatory vaccine, because i have a functional immune system (like 99.9% of the people, for the sarscov2), and because the death rate caused by the sarscov2 is not as dramatic as the politics / medias want us to believe... (0.1% of the people died with the sarscov2, in France, knowing that 1% of the people die of aging / others 'diseases' / weaknesses, each year, in France...)

surprising isn't it ? the people who are very old / very sick / very weak die each year, with or without the sarscov2...

i am also against a 'digital pass' to be able to travel, go into shops / restaurants / bars / hospitals like what they try to impose in France.

i warned people about these surveillance / control measures in spring / summer 2020, and some of you told me that i was exaggerating, well look at the situation now...
and like with the 'fight against terrorism' it is one more step towards more surveillance and control of the population.

Quoteas everyone should have the right to be a stupid if they so wish

Quotebut as an asthmatic

btw, the same surveillance / control is trying to happen with crypto currencies, so nothing to do with the sarscov2...

Quote from: RemiD on August 15, 2021, 11:24:36
i am against a mandatory vaccine, because i have a functional immune system (like 99.9% of the people, for the sarscov2), and because the death rate caused by the sarscov2 is not as dramatic as the politics / medias want us to believe... (0.1% of the people died with the sarscov2, in France, knowing that 1% of the people die of aging / others 'diseases' / weaknesses, each year, in France...)

The 0.1% came about from an article on rt.com and proven that the death rate is much higher towards 1%

Quote from: RemiD on August 15, 2021, 11:24:36
i warned people about these surveillance / control measures in spring / summer 2020, and some of you told me that i was exaggerating, well look at the situation now...

You could also say we already carry around the perfect surveillance device called mobile phone. There are also surveillance and behavioural website like Facebook who have already admitted that they have used psychological experiments to make people happy / sad. Photo's are geotagged, satnavs are wifi connected, GPS enabled and record our movements. TV's are wifi enabled and monitor what we watch in order to learn what we like and build up a profile.

The same people who scream about privacy and surveillance are the same ones who said the same about the above and will continue to do so whenever something new comes along, like the COVID vaccine / passports. You can find global conspiracy everywhere and people have been doing so for decades.

There is also a common trait with conspiracy theorists in that they believe they are right and the rest are just sheep. They want to alert people, to open their eyes and see what they see, whilst also ignoring the fact that trying to convince people to put aside their own beliefs and believe you is also a form of manipulation.

I don't see any forced vaccination process, control, surveillance etc that you could argue we didn't already have before. The biggest change for me is having to wear a facemask in stores which is fine by me as if I do get COVID then I don't want to be breathing it everywhere before symptoms present.

But each to their own

QuoteThe 0.1% came about from an article on rt.com and proven that the death rate is much higher towards 1%

the 0.11% comes from my own recent calculation (for France), which i check regularly since april 2020, not much has changed .

also a death by carrying the sarscov2 and a death from covid (the symptoms) are 2 different things.

if you don't verify the numbers by yourself, you become a believer, a follower, like in a religion or something.

Quote
You could also say we already carry around the perfect surveillance device called mobile phone.

indeed but the technology / tool is not the problem, how it is used is the problem.
if the government becomes malevolent and censor and 'paralyze' contradicting infos and opponents, there is a problem.

Quote
whilst also ignoring the fact that trying to convince people to put aside their own beliefs and believe you is also a form of manipulation

same remark for the normies

Quote
I don't see any forced vaccination process, control, surveillance etc

maybe in your country...
this is happening in France right now...

Quote
The biggest change for me is having to wear a facemask in stores which is fine by me as if I do get COVID then I don't want to be breathing it everywhere before symptoms present.

i can understand that, you can wear masks as much as you want, of different colors, with different styles, maybe even several on top of each others
the only issue i have with masks is that i can't see the faces of women who seem beautiful but may not really be, and i can't send / receive smiles anymore, which is sad.  

QuoteBut each to their own

that's just what the people who protest against the pass and the mandatory vaccination ask for, to be able to make their own choices and live, walk around, work, shop, meet, travel, freely.

after all if you believe the vaccine will protect you, just do it.

I think vaccines are part of the system to try and keep people healthy. I think masks and 2 meter distancing are also important. Although if a person has the virus without knowing then a mask is crucial. People should not just consider themselves, such as those desperate to travel abroad, but others also. You can rebuild the economy but you cannot bring back family. The balance between economy and the virus is a tricky one and I think should be taken slowly. In the UK I think we should have waited another month to allow more vaccines for the young.

I have to say though, it is quite amusing when the anti vaccine mob catch it themselves and then die or spend extra long time in our hospitals, which may have had a better result if they had taken the vaccine in the first place. 

So, if we cannot eradicate the virus then we must do all we can to reduce its effectiveness.

Jim.

Quote from: RemiD on August 15, 2021, 22:57:48
after all if you believe the vaccine will protect you, just do it.

I do and I did, well sort of. I don't believe it'll make me immune but if I do catch it then hopefully the resulting symptoms won't be as bad or last as long and transference won't be as potent.

Quote from: RemiD on August 15, 2021, 22:57:48
that's just what the people who protest against the pass and the mandatory vaccination ask for, to be able to make their own choices and live, walk around, work, shop, meet, travel, freely.

I could go on a rant but this isn't the forum for that

Quote from: RemiD on August 15, 2021, 22:57:48
Same remark for the normies

No one who knows me would ever call me 'normal'

Quoteit is quite amusing when the anti vaccine mob catch it themselves and then die or spend extra long time in our hospitals, which may have had a better result if they had taken the vaccine in the first place.

'which may have had a better result'
time will tell... already contradicting infos on this...

i have already cought it twice, and there was one moment where i was afraid because i had difficulties to breath, but this remembered my youth when i had asthma, and i stopped to eat glue and others 'inflamatories' and alcohol, and i recovered quite quickly. (but people won't consider that some foods can cause disease or worsen a disease... but the profiles who are really sick are quite similar  )

however i can understand that depending on your age and health state, you may be more at risk than another person, so in this case take more precautions... but let other people live...

I balk at the idea of mandatory vaccinations for the general public, on the other hand I'm more accepting of vaccination being a requirement for healthcare workers.
If you're looking after patients or the elderly, you have a duty to them that overrides your personal opinion.

What has depressed me a little is the sheer lunacy and paranoia that's blown up around getting vaccinated, which is about avoiding serious illness and keeping healthcare systems functioning. The internet has been a great tool for communication and information dissemination these last few decades.
But it's also been very, very good for every flavor of the nutters brigade.

I'm not sure a vaccine passport before you can travel aboard is actually that helpful because everyone knows that you can still get this virus even if you have been double-jabbed, but mostly you either won't get symptoms, or they'll be seriously lessened because of it. This means there's potential for someone to go abroad having shown they are vaccinated, but it's perfectly possible they are still carrying the virus, and pass it on without being aware.

I think I'd like it if airports and other travel options had some kind of test that is both quick, as unintrusive as possible, and gives instant results so people are only stopped if they actually have the virus full-stop.

I got flagged up for the first time on my phone app two days ago, which means someone had the virus within blue-tooth range of me for a while, and have had a test result uploaded onto their own app. It doesn't tell me where I could have been near this person or the date/time, so I've now been told I had to quarantine for 8 days. Luckily it was the last day of my holiday or I'd have been truly screwed up. I've now had to do a postal kit test return which will hopefully come up negative, before I'm responsibly allowed to leave my house.

it's not a great system because, while I may have been in proximity to someone who has or is carrying the virus, I could have been well out of range, and only briefly near them, but I'm now restricted as a result.

What I will say is that these conspiracy people who think the vaccine is Bill Gates trying to location track them, or some other stupid theory, so they refuse to protect themselves and other people they willingly expose themselves to, are just fucking idiots.

Quote from: Xerra on August 20, 2021, 17:55:53
(...) you can still get this virus even if you have been double-jabbed (...). This means there's potential for someone to go abroad having shown they are vaccinated, but it's perfectly possible they are still carrying the virus, and pass it on without being aware.

I think I'd like it if airports and other travel options had some kind of test that is both quick, as unintrusive as possible, and gives instant results so people are only stopped if they actually have the virus full-stop.

Great points Xerra, thanks a lot.